Roy Stemman
Veteran Spiritualist commentator Roy Stemman has paid a visit to a physical séance given by British-born medium David Thompson and, to say the least, his report makes interesting reading.
The séance, held in Oxfordshire earlier this week, was part of Thompson’s European tour, which will also see the controversial medium demonstrating trance, physical and mental mediumship at a week-long event in Spain.
Roy’s commentary is balanced, considering events through the eyes of both believer and sceptic. He pulls no punches, though, nailing his colours firmly to the mast in his concluding paragraphs.
“What”s the point of going to all the trouble of manifesting ectoplasm,” he asks, “just so that a poor imitation of Quentin Crisp can carry on cheerful banter with sitters, and Louis Armstrong can once again rasp away in something approaching his inimitable voice?”
Mediumship should be about providing evidence of survival beyond death, about comforting the bereaved and empowering them with the strength to start living again. With that clearly in mind, Roy asks:
“Why, if enough ectoplasm is being produced to allow these long-dead celebrities to perform for us again, is it not being used more effectively to reunite loved ones and provide real evidence that the phenomena is real?”
You can read Roy’s article here:
http://paranormalreview.com/articles/20110816
Good news!
We’re pleased to report that Roy Stemman’s website is now up and running again. You can visit it by clicking on the link above.
Spirit of PN 
Would be nice to see who the competent stage illusionist that would be used to do the same demonstration can be seen like for like with all the same conditions used and tested before start,it will interesting who will take this challenge up at £45 per show,looking forward to when you check it out and bring both together give results at later date when you have set up competion,there must be so many illusionists waiting to prove you right.
An interesting and thought provoking review of the issues by Roy Stemman. Like Roy, I err on the side of scepticism as far as David Thompson’s mediumship is concerned. Above all else, whatever it is that’s occurring in his seances, until it begins to happen in sufficient light for the people present to actually see the alleged materialisations, one must be cautious about accepting what the medium and his support group claim is happening.
As for the question of a magician being able to reproduce everything that occurs in a Thompson seance – whether that is true or not – it really doesn’t take away the real issue which is whether what Thompson is doing is genuine or not. A magician might be able to reproduce the apparent phenomena but that does not in itself prove that Thompson is cheating, it merely makes clear that such phenomena can be produced by deception not that Thompson is doing that way.
There is only one way the issue can be resolved and that is for David Thompson to produce real phenomena in sufficient light for all to see. If he can do that, then we can all praise him and the controversy surrounding him will go away.
A few further thoughts based on two paragraphs in Roy Stemman’s article. The paragraphs of interest are:
“Though Thompson and Morgan had spoken of full-form materialisations, we never saw any such thing. When a voice announced the arrival of a new communicator we all had to join hands. This was to ensure we didn’t accidentally touch the materialised spirit, which could cause the ectoplasm to recoil and damage the medium. But, the spirits could apparently touch us with immunity. It was simply a way to ensure no one reached out with their hands and felt more than they should have done.
“These spirits were invisible to our eyes but they felt like a normal human being, which they clearly were. When “William Charles Cadwell” proved his physical presence to me he had done so with a hand on my head and then stepping on my feet. Not only did he have the weight of a normal person but he was also, clearly, wearing trainers. I could feel the hardness of their ridged soles (Thompson was wearing trainers) on my toes. I, of course, was wearing only socks on my feet as shoes were not allowed in the séance room.”
The quotes highlight two significant issues. First, that though people must remove their shoes to ensure no accidential contact with the ‘materialized’ entities because of some grave risk to the medium, it seems that such materialized entities can quite safely touch physical people without any risk to the medium at all???
Second, ‘William Charles Cadwell’ the alleged spirit guide who had ‘materialized’ and was able to touch people was apparently wearing trainers???
Most curious. No doubt Thompson or one of his legion of supporters will have a ready answer for the first issue – something along the lines of the materialized entity is able to make physical contact when the necessary conditions of safety (!) have been established.
As for the second issue – WCC an allegedly nineteenth century spirit person wearing trainers – I am going to wait with great interest the explanation given for that little anomoly. After all there was only one person in the room wearing trainers as everyone else had to remove their shoes before entering the seance room.
Perhaps WCC is now so closely aligned with the medium that when he materializes he actually takes on the body of the medium, and his clothing, in order to move about the totally dark seance room. If so, it hardly describes what we might normally expect the materialization of an independent spirit person to be like.
Thank God there are people like you, Roy Stemman, and Sue Farrow, to keep Spiritualism pointed in the right direction, reminding us that we are all on a path of evolution and should be using gifts like physical mediumship to ask the necessary questions. It is by our questions that we show we are ready for the knowledge that will not be given otherwise.
I am unable to connect to the site provided to read Roy’s article.
Is anyone else having the same problem? Any advice?
Thanks
James, please see my announcement (in red) above. Sue
Thank you Sue. I have just been reading Roy’s excellent article on pdf format and agree with his findings. The truth will out!
Although I do appreciate the balanced viewpoints Roy Stemman has put forward in his reporting of a David Thompson seance, I do feel from the comments so far that most people are not giving David the benefit of the doubt, concerning his mediumship.
As we should all realize, every seance is an experiment in Spiritual communication between the two worlds. When a physical medium goes into trance in proper circle conditions, the phenomena that eventuates depends entirely upon what can be achieved by the Spirit helpers, and circle operators of the medium AT THAT TIME.. and absolutely not upon the wishes of the sitters. Physical Mediumship is such a rare gift these days, so rather than be critical of David’s Mediumship, we should be encouraging and supporting him in every way possible. Too many genuine ‘physical’ mediums in the past have suffered due to negative attitudes. Yes.. it is important that fraudulent mediums are exposed, but I doubt David’s Mediumship falls into this category. Yes..fine points of evidence are wonderful to receive in such circumstances, but I’m sure when David’s controls and Spirit helpers are good and ready, they will provide conditions for all to see and experience in red light.
I do feel sometimes we expect “too much” and we impose too many “conditions” upon the Spirit Realm, who I am sure, are always striving (just as we are) to give their very best at any given time, to produce the wonderful phenomena of Physical Mediumship, when it is possible. In other words, let the Mediumship unfold naturally, and always remember that the ‘key’ or impetus to any form of successful mediumship is the LOVE energy that is mutually radiated between the two worlds in circle conditions. Not sceptical thoughts and analysis.
So come on everyone..what if Louis “Satchmo” Armstrong wants to sing his head off.. ! ..rather than give you fine points of evidence concerning his upbringing, or what his mother’s birthday was etc? If he wanted to give you such details..then he would have. In the meantime, you would increase the energy needed if you all “sang along with Satchmo” with great gusto!..not overlooking the fact that a ‘wonderful event’ is taking place..a unique experience that is only possible via the very rare qualities of Physical mediumship.
Hi Douglas,
One of the problems with David Thompson is he is far from being a “beginner” now, having worked for well over 10 years at this and promising the introduction of light into seances for over 5 years now. Admittedly when he came to Australia the Cicle Leader of his UK Group may not have felt he was ready for public seances.
In addition there has been much debate about his Mediumship in that same recent 5 years. There are many valid questions which have been asked with no satisfactory answers. Indeed asking questions of him is most often called “unspiritual”. David has also categorically stated that he will never agree to be involved in any research, which makes it difficult to properly assess his work. You may get a feel of the questions posed to him from the thread here http://spiritualismlink.forumotion.com/t672-questions-for-david-thompson this is never a “witch hunt” more an attempt to ascertain what is valid. Remember Mediumship is all about proof and, as supporters of Physical Mediumship claim it is the highest form of proof, then it also needs the best evidence possible to back up those claims.
Jim
Many thanks for your comments Jim, and the very interesting URL you provided, which details the research that has been carried out on David Thompson’s mediumship, I was unaware of this, which has certainly given me a broader outlook on this matter.
Nobody has mentioned the fact that, we can talk amongst ourselves till doomsday, but what about talking to the spirit operators? They will be fully aware of the desires of everyone and of course, if they intend to show that life is eternal and wish to some extent, give evidence towards it, then they would happily explain the problems they may well be having to do this in a satisfactory way.
Remember, like attracts like. All mediums attract those from spirit with a like mind. We all have certain inward desires and reasons for working with our friends from spirit, and that evidence will manifest accordingly.
Some physical mediums produce nearly the same phenomena at every sitting, trumpets, moving objects, showing part or full materialization.This is fine, but in the end it doesn’t teach us anything. How nice it would be, for a physical medium to be able to produce materializations and a conversation able to take place (Alec Harris comes to mind), then the real learning would take place.Talk is about materialization mediums being able to produce evidence, but nobody has mentioned Transfiguration mediums (Emotional mediumship), who are able to bring forward loved ones. This form of mediumship I think would be very difficult for an illusionist to produce. It would be nice for science to work with us on this matter, for it is my beleif that life continuous will only be proven when this happens, You will need the right medium who has the right spirit group working with him or her, so that there is a group (science, spirit and medium) that will, with the right motive, be seekers of truth.
I think you make several interesting and valid points John. I am sure that it is the spirit operators that control what occurs in those physical mediumship circles where the level of interaction between the two worlds has been developed over time by dedicated people on both sides.
It must also be very true that like attracts like and that the quality observed in any physical mediumship seance is inevitably determined by the personal qualities, integrity, and sincerity, of the medium who is at the centre of what occurs. Spirit is, afterall, aware that they are, at the best of times, having to work through imperfect vehicles for their communications and manifestations and the quality of what can be achieved is of necessity restricted by whatever imperfections exist in conditions and in the quality of the mediumship available to them.
I must also agree that there are other forms of mediumship, also of what might be called a ‘physical’ nature, such as transfiguration which can, at its best, provide as much evidence of survival as any apparent manifestation or materialization when it occurs in a totally darkened room. At least with transfiguration, when all present can see the faces that appear in the red light, there can be no doubt that spirit is present even though they may not during the transfiguration process be able to animate the face created out of ectoplasmic material or speak.
Physical phenomena seances where the same phenomena, trumpets, moving objects, voices and unseen apparent manifestations in total darkness repeatedly occur, might be impressive for those who have not experienced such a thing previously, but in the final analysis, unless that range of phenomena includes communication from identifiable, recognised individuals in the spirit world who are related or personally connected with people present, it does little if anything to confirm or prove survival of the human spirit.
However amusing the apparent presence of a Quentin Crisp or a Louis Armstrong might be, for example, since no one in the room ever knew them, and could not therefore ever actually question them to establish they were who they claim to be, such ‘appearances’ really do nothing to prove to those present that their loved ones have survived and continue to not only exist but to take an interest in their lives and have a continued desire to communicate their presence.
In my personal experience as a Spiritualist and medium for over 45 years, I have never known spirit to waste either time or energy presenting anything in any form of mediumship that was not directly relevant to the purpose of proving to the individuals present their individual identity and connection to their loved ones in the room.
G’day Spirit of PN,
First, I must tell you that I am a personal friend of both David and Christine.
I am rummaging through my collection of seance tapes, with the object of reminding myself of events that occurred several years ago.
Having sat with David for several years, during the period 2001 to 2008, I can assure you all that there were more than a few occasions when the materialisation could not have been the medium or, I believe, any of the sitters. My fathers return on several occasions being only one example.
With your permission, I will comment further when my memory has been refreshed.
Hi Mr Hawke,
I would not wish to say anything to negate your obvious support of David Thompson, but I really don’t think that he was in Australia in 2001.
I also don’t think that anyone wishes to refute any individual’s personal experience of receiving what they feel is good evidence of the spirit return of a loved one. The discussion really is about evaluating the interesting article written by Roy Stemman on his recent experience and the anomolies in the events that took place in the seance he attended.
Would someone tell me why the cost of £45 to sit in a physical seance? By all means one would accept a charge of some kind, say to cover expenses, but I find that amount way over the top. Anyway I await an answer.
I am a physical medium and demonstrate in churches. When costs are mentioned, I never charge to put money in the pocket. Local churches are free, petrol money further out. We work for spirit, not for money. There should be a love for being an instrument where one can bring the two worlds together. That love is reciprocated by our spirit friends.
I thought the article was well balanced, and always the sceptical mind should be alert, because that is what has to be convinced that all that is produced is authentic. Another matter I would like to raise is the level of evolvment of the guide, I would suggest that the guide had not moved on very much considering the length of time in spirit, this would make me understand that producing the phenomena that was mentioned would be the limit. I may be wrong, but open to suggestions. Isn’t it interesting, I have read many books, where spirit manifesting in ultra violet, for example have been shown, has the Thompson circle endeavoured to produce photos as such, not the full monty as they say, but at least a part of the way in solving some issues.
John I should like to talk with you will you contact me via address below?
Editor’s note: For data protection reasons we do not publish individual posters’ email addresses. John, if you would like to contact Ken, please email me at Spirit of PN: spiritofpn@gmail.com and I will put you in touch with Ken.
Ken, I have not forgotten your request to talk to me, I have sent 3 emails in regard to it via the email address given and not had a reply.
Not sure if my emails are being received, as not had any details as such.
John, we’ve received no emails from you to date. I will take your post as meaning that you would like to contact Ken, and will send you his email address shortly. Sue
Lis,
I first met David in England in 2001. He also made a private visit to Oz in that year and several more prior to settling here in 2005.
I’ll let you get on with it.
Thanks for clarifying that Tom. I was sure that David Thompson did not settle in Australia until 2005, but of course that did not mean you had not met him prior to that time.
As it happens I do know of others who have felt David Thompson has given them very genuine evidence of survival of a loved one (though not necessarily via the materialization of that loved one), however, I also know of others who have been significantly less impressed and perhaps even sceptical of what is taking place in the seance room. Roy Stemman’s article really highlights those two rather diametrically opposed viewpoints.
I know that David has himself said for the record back in 2009 that it matters not to him what other people think, or whether what occurs in his seances is the materialization of spirit. Indeed he made clear at that time it was his view that since his seances occur in the dark it is only spirit who can know for sure what is taking place and he cannot understand how anyone else can have an informed opinion.
David also stated that people will always have opinions because he does work in public and that is one of the aspects of working in the public eye and he understands and accepts this. I believe, from what he has written in the past, that while acknowledging that his mediumship gives rise to debate it is a situation where no one will be able to prove their opinions either way.
No doubt he is quite correct in saying that the expressing of opinions will not prove one way or another, the nature or validity of David Thompson’s mediumship. Asking questions and/or expressing opinions does however allow people to consider, debate, evaluate and discern, and arrive at a more reasoned position for their viewpoint be it positive or negative in regard to Thompson’s work.
Discussion and debate are valid and perfectly reasonable when one is dealing with a form of mediumship which has been in the past, and is still today, subject to deception, fraud and controversy.
What seems to have taken place at the seance that Roy went to, was very similar to one I went to in Portsmouth where Warren Caylor was the medium.
He was involved in checking all those who sat, seat placement and where his circle sat.
I am not sure if many who read this, will be aware of the controversy that took place in the Psychic news, but everything I witnessed left me in no doubt that things were not right.
In the seance Roy attended a few things stand out that I couldn’t understand, I attended a seance with Stewart Alexander, the circle members controlled all that took place, the medium was not involved at all (That to me is how it should be) Shoes were not removed and there was no requirement for holding hands, even though spirit were touching several people.
Balancing of energies was mentioned, well all that I have read is that there maybe a requirement for alternating male/female, but not essential, after all, we are children when we talk about energy, spirit on the other hand are well organised in dealing with it.
The medium in my mind should be away from the scene,preparing himself for the seance, not getting involved in what to my mind is a circle function, talk of balancing energies by those who attend is less important than the mediums own preparation.
Did anyone ask spirit why red light was not to be used for this seance, as I see it,many physical mediums in the past have used it and never had a problem.
Dear Reader, Would you buy a used car from a salesman who insists that the vehicle can only be viewed in total darkness? A person who also insists that you remove your shoes in case you kick the tyres and also plays very loud music to prevent you hearing the engine running? However he does agree to drive over your feet in order to prove the car is there.
Well, would you?
Hi to all debating these issues. I feel it is such a shame that the question of the trainers was not raised at the time. What a great opportunity missed to give William a chance to prove himself. I do feel that individuals are overwhelmed at the time of sitting (although Roy does not strike me as such a person from his writing) and some times group pressure can be intimidating. I have many times spoken to people after the seance only for them to change their mind when in the cold light of day. This makes anyone elses “evidence” so difficult to take on board as fact.
Give the mediums and the spirit teams the right of reply at the time. Of course non reply would speak with equal vigour.
There used to be red light in all of David’s seances. It certainly helped to reduce the fear that David was walking around the room. The talk of spirit light has gone on since time began and William insisted that this was the need to go to Australia in the first place.
I can say to anyone who reads this that mostly,whilst he sat with the Haymist circle, David would not have entered the room until the seance was due to begin and this would be the same in a new venue with a strange chair and ties that would often be supplied by the venue or sitters
I was very interested to read Victor Zammit’s page on the 19th August where in commenting on Roy’s article he made the statement you cannot judge the mediumship on one sitting alone. Underneath he champions Monty’s report. Montague Keen sat only once with David Thompson. This is typical of Victor that if you agree with him you have a valid opinion and if you do not then you are closed minded sceptic. He used to say it was a scientific report but that has been downgraded a touch now.
Good answers will only come from good questions and these need to be asked. When venue holders bar you for asking questions when mediums ban you from sitting for asking questions and supporters such as Victor have continually condemed people for having an opinion there will be no progress that people from all sides profess to be in search of.
I was banned from sitting with a physical medium unless I promised to write a positive report. Sad times eh!
Paul, thanks for sharing your thoughts which, I know, are born of extensive experience of David Thompson’s mediumship throughout his years with the Haymist Circle in the UK.
Your point about the late Montague Keen having sat only once with DT is a very important one. As you say, Victor Zammit has long used MK’s sitting as a testimonial, yet he criticises Roy Stemman (an experienced and shrewd observer) for having the temerity to form an opinion on the basis of one sitting. Such inconsistency is worrying because it suggests a lack of objectivity – a vital attribute in anyone who is investigating mediumship of any kind.
As a passionate believer in the importance of physical mediumship to Spiritualism, it both saddens and concerns me that objectivity, openness and sheer common sense are currently in such short supply among some who seek to promote it. The right to question, as Roy has done in his article, is fundamental and necessary. If all is as it should be, what is to be feared from truth? As Maurice Barbanell put it: “Spiritualists must keep their own house in order.”
If we don’t, who will?
Sue
Paul – you are right. I could have asked William why he was apparently wearing hard-soled footwear, which felt like ridged trainers when he placed his feet on mine. And on reflection, perhaps I should have done so. But I’m not sure how giving voice to that observation at the time would have led to him proving himself. By the same token, I could have asked David Fontana a question that would have established his identity. But when you bump into someone unexpectedly (particularly in the dark!) coming up with a test question isn’t easy.
Besides, nothing about the proceedings on Monday night led me or anyone else to believe that the spirit communicators (or Thompson himself) were open to being tested in any way. So I simply remained focused on what was happening, doing my best to remember as much of the detail as possible so that I could share what I heard and felt with readers of my Blog.
The point you make is a good one, however. Perhaps those who attend David Thompson seances in future could be encouraged to challenge the spirit communicators to do something unusual that could not have been rehearsed or planned in advance. I suspect, however, that they will be told that there is not enough energy, or that it will harm the medium. There seem to be no end of excuses that can be trotted out to explain why real evidence – like the ectoplasm that is supposed to be produced – is so thin on the ground.
Hi Roy,
I did not believe that it was acceptable practice in a DT Seance for the sitters to challenge the visiting Spirits. Their Seance tapes have shown that even the reuglar circle members rarely test the Spirits in any detail. One of the Circle Members, who has now moved on, did in the early days get as far as asking the name of Houdini’s wife but the questions were stopped there without an answer.
Jim
I was present at a seminar and demonstration with Thompson and I was not at all impressed by the experience. What was disturbing was the way people seemed blind to what was happening and followed like sheep. I have felt guilty for years about it and wish I had spoken up at the time. However like the rest I said nothing. The worst incident is when Thompson in the guise of a psychic surgeon was administering a form of healing to a dear old lady who had arthritis and was waiting for a hip replacement. What he did was a version of a Mesmerist method of entrancing the recipient then ordering the lady to get up and walk, which she did. He then flung away her stick saying she would no longer need it and would not need the hip replacing. I find this shocking to say the least and I was disgusted with the fact no-one voiced their opinion on this atrocious behavior to the lady to suit his own ends. Take this along with his silly advice to others on what medication to take against the wishes of their respective doctors. Thompson is a danger to many.
I am horrified hearing Garas report but even it is not as bad as when Davids Guide told pregnant ladies to take aspirin so they wouldnt have a Downs baby. There must be laws against that type of thing. Its so so irresponsable!!
Hi Janey,
In a séance apparently on the 28th April 2007 William came through and talked of a causal link between Aids (a viral infection) and Aids (a genetic disorder). He also mentioned that there was a possible cure to both AIDS and Downs Syndrome from Aspirin.
Then on 13th May 2007 came the following statements:
“William: You know I must say this. Please may I say that this must only be done upon your physician’s instructions. If older people who have children, was to take an aspirin every other day from the time of being aware of being pregnant, it would alleviate any problems with Down’s Syndrome.”
Both were felt so important they were quickly put on the COSC website but as people raised comments then they were taken down just as quickly.
As you say that incident was very scary and given the risks Aspirin pose to pregnancies (except in treating very specific medical conditions under suprevision) potentially dangerous.
Jim
Hello all
I understand that it is being stressed that people can ask questions on David’s tour. It always has to be that whether new or old sitters, this is their opportunity to speak out and ask away. The reality can be sometimes different.
A lady remained anonymous after visiting Jenny’s sanctuary and made comments on a recent Bill Meadows seance. She may have been right or wrong in her observations, I don’t know, but if the atmosphere remains one in which sitters will not speak out, then the mediums will not get the chance to prove themselves and this very uncomfortable feeling of fraud will exist. I wish that mediums were less worried about it, as there is nothing to fear from questions. Questions are certainly less threatening than being strapped up in a dark room with strangers, where the provision of a passport offers no protection from the wayward sitter. Mediums keep telling us they risk their lives to prove survival after death. Well, stop risking your lives then. Why take the risk when the answers to questions can be timid or wrong, or the questions are ignored? What then is the point?
As for evidence, if the circle at the time were prepared to accept from spirit that Houdini would have a southern accent as Louis Armstrong was there on the same night, then what hope is there of a serious question being answered? The clear difference here is that this is not a mental medium searching for a name that sounds like….. it is an entity in person in the room, not knowing a wife, brother, father etc – subjects close to the entity’s heart, one would have thought.
I personally had a visitor during one of David’s seances and “Peter Cook” asked if I would like to guess who it was. “No,” I replied. “I would like evidence.” It didn’t come.
I want to know the point of all the hard work it must take get to the seance, get through the ectoplasm, deal with the vibrational issues and have all the chemists working behind the scenes, only for it to fizzle at the end with the easy bit.
To take it a step further, a friend of mine was humiliated in a public seance and told that he was a stupid boy for asking a question. “Love and Light.” Other sitters would then have been worried about asking their own questions in that environment.
Does it mean we have to go back to questions that mean nothing and are met with a “He loves you very much and is very proud of you”?
We need to stand up (not in the seance of course) and be counted. Raise the bar, not lower the standard. Then the mediums will shine and the evidence will flow, as this is what the guides tell us is the purpose of the event in the first place.
Warm regards
The person Paul refers to, having been in a public seance and told I must be stupid for asking why we needed to be sitting in the dark when there was obviously no physical phenomena occuring (for over an hour and a half) was me…I would just like to clarify that it wasn’t a David Thompson seance. However, I did sit with David two days after Roy Stemmen’s visit. I have sat with David on may occasions but not since he left for Australia in 2004. My experience was somewhat different to Mr Stemmen’s particularly in respect of personal communication received by two individual ladies who both received very good evidence which they were able to confirm as accurate and verify as being unknown to the medium when asked immediately after the seance closed. I would also like to confirm that in my opinion both the trumpet phenomena and the quality of communication had improved considerably in the time period since my last seance with David.
The problem with David Thompson’s seances is that all the sitters’ identities are known in advance by the medium. That arrangement would give a fraudulent medium the opportunity to research some of them and provide information which appears to be impossible for him to know. I’m not saying that David Thompson does this, but by operating in this way it inevitably throws up doubts. In the days when Maurice Barbanell and Hannen Swaffer were writing about physical mediums, they frequently accompanied anonymous guests whose identities could not be known to the medium, but who were immediately recognised by the spirit communicators. I can best illustrate the point I am making by referring to the communicator who spoke to one of the sitters (Tony Papard) at the seance I attended. The only name provided by the communicator (who was identified as George, Tony’s partner) was the name Sandy, which Tony revealed was a dog that George was always concerned about. How could the medium have known that? Well, one explanation could be that he simply read through entries on Tony Papard’s Blog, where George’s fondness for Sandy is described in some detail. Until such possible normal explanations are ruled out, doubts will remain. If the bookings for places at Thompson’s seances were totally out of his hands, and the organisers did not share that information with him, that would be a useful step in the right direction.
Roy’s last sentence highlights what I believe to be one of the most important issues facing mediumship today. Spirit communicate through a human channel – a human mind – and regardless of how honest and genuine that human channel might be, the less he or she knows about a sitter, the greater the value of evidence if and when it comes. It’s obvious to a flea that if a medium knows absolutely nothing in advance, evidence has to have come from some source other than his or her mind.
It’s a marvellous thing to sit with a medium who has never set eyes on you, doesn’t even know your name, yet somehow manages to convey precise details of the loved one you long to hear from.
We rightly hold up Spiritualist pioneers, such as Sir Oliver Lodge, Arthur Findlay and Maurice Barbanell, as seekers after truth who were meticulous in their efforts to gather evidence of survival in order to convince a doubting public. So why do I bring them into this comment? The answer is that they were shrewd. They took careful precautions to enable uncompromised evidence to come through. When Findlay had that first wonderful sitting with John Sloan – a life changing experience that gave us On the Edge of the Etheric, the best selling Spiritualist book of all time – did he produce his driving licence? His passport? His NI number? No! He didn’t even give his first name. More importantly, did Sloan ask him to do so? Of course not! Why would he have needed to?
Today, when information is so readily available on the internet, it is even more important to keep quiet about who we are when sitting with a medium for the first time. Yes, there are risks to a physical medium, for sure, and we would be foolish not to recognise those. But there are ways around that problem. One of our most prominent and respected physical mediums plays no part at all in the selection, seating or searching of his sitters. Recognising the vital importance of knowing as little as possible about them, he leaves all that to his circle leader. That is how it should be, and it is time that all demonstrating physical mediums returned to that policy. Sue.
Roy Stemmen wrote “you are right. I could have asked William why he was apparently wearing hard-soled footwear, which felt like ridged trainers when he placed his feet on mine. And on reflection, perhaps I should have done so. But I’m not sure how giving voice to that observation at the time would have led to him proving himself.”
Mr Stemmen, it may not have proved William’s identity but it may have confirmed to you and your co-sitters that it wasn’t David Thompson out of the chair…as unfortunately the seeds of doubt in your article may suggest.
You’ve lost me there, Denzil. Are you saying that if I had asked the question, William may have done something that would have dispelled my doubts? If so, I don’t buy that. If William is capable of producing awe-inspiring and gob-smackingly evidential phenomena, why doesn’t he get on and do it, without needing to be asked, instead of repeating the same set-piece phenomena such as reversing a cardigan back-to-front at every one of his seances? Now, if William had taken me by the hand and led me to the medium, seated in his chair, and invited me to feel both of them … that would have dissolved my doubts. But he didn’t. So, I’m left with another “may be” possibility, which is that may be he couldn’t for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Well the circle has turned full circle. The seance referred to was a Noah’s Ark Society event and the Medium was no other than Colin Fry who said very little of substance. One of the communicators was meant to be Leslie Flint. However the negative comments made were not from the other side of life, they do not speak thus.The event was a pantomime and the quicker PM is in some form of light the better. The pioneers in the past managed it.
By the way, in the various polls people vote no, yet do not reply. On that basis this post will probably have a a pathectic vote
I mean David Thompson is special – but I am sure: his mediumship is either!
I have witnessed last time in Basle (2011) – when my own control “Hans Bender” materialized and spoke with his typical manner of speech, he even does not, when he comes through me, two German sentences – how DT was gagged and bound that day!
They were checked one by one, every of the two (!) cable binds on each limb!!!!
They were pretty tight! And I believe it was unthinkable to get out of them!
I think we can exclude, that someone who is with him is a confederate, who sneaks into the cab to free him.
His partner Christine talks all the time and the sitters beside her would have detected if she was leaving her place!
Basically I always say: DEMONSTRATE IT BY YOURSELF – before you doubt the integrity of others publicly!
Michael Prescott, a well known columnist once had asked in one of the largest illusionists forum, the “magic cafe” forum, how it might be possible to get out of the cable binds!
Only three commentators (professional illusionists) did claim it is possible, but only with the large yellow ones, the police is using in US (approx 1.5 cm broad). Meanwhile the securing system is technically the same between the ones David uses (regular cable binds) and these larger Police binds! Anyway…
Michael Prescott then asked for a demonstration, even with no revealing how it is done, only to show it can be done!
Only one magician was then left who claimed to be ready to demonstrate…. – many times he announced but finally never did!
After this Michael Prescott wrote “Rethinking David Thompson” – an article that claimed that this question with the cable binds is crucial obviously pointing into the direction, that David CANNOT free himself, OR is freeing himself by paranormal means to incorporate the spirit!
That would be a paranormal transfiguration and NO fraud.
So theorizing without refering to the actual conditions makes no sense!
In my opinion!
My opinion is: Demonstrate it under the same conditions!
Its not fair to allege fraud without being backed up by facts!
We shall additionally not forget, that it is not only the freeing from the cable binds but also the reinstallment of them, what brings considerable problems for the hoaxer.
After this seance I referred to at the beginning DT AND THE CABINET was positioned On THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM full of people. He must have transported not only the stool through the dark room without being detected, but the cabinet either. The cabinet was such a unstable one with thin metal pipes sticked into one another, easy to break down completely, if you don t handle it extremely carefully.
And what his survival evidence concerns: we all know how crucial the daily condition is. We cannot await, that a medium is permanently giving strong survival evidence. In physical it is the same!
Sometimes the communicators are more persuasive, sometimes not.
Apart from the overwhelming appearance of my own control “Hans Bender” in DT seance, all the improbabilities listed above point into the direction of genuineness in my opinion!
Hi Denzil,
It was not you that I was referring to at all it was Micky B and it was in a DT seance in Banbury. I did not know that this had happened to you before.
warm regards
Hi All
It is a separate issue between the binds/ ties and evidence of survival. I am aware of the lengths that were gone into to check David’s ties. As was said before, sitters would often supply the ties. Venues would provide the chairs and the room might be completely unknown to David prior to the seance. There was always red light available and this would come on several times during the seance and sitters would be invited to check the ties again and again. Some of the sitters would be first timers and these would be the best people to check the binds before and after, as well as during the spells when the light was on. On several occasions magicians were asked to inspect all aspects of security and they often highlighted some we hadn’t thought of.
I understand that Denzil saw some remarkable trumpet work last week.This is amazing to watch if people have never seen it before, as the trumpet moves so fast, and sometimes two go in different directions beyond a person’s reach and can tap gently on the shoulders or head without smashing them. They can tickle the end of your nose without hurting the sitter. This remains with me as a truly amazing experience.
Sadly this does not bare any relevance to personal evidence and proof of survival but demonstrates a force of physical phenomena.
Often what has appeared to be excellent evidence in the seance room has been rejected by the recipient at a later point. Sometimes one hour later.
Denzil will remember his friend called Sue being called Susan by her father who came through in a seance. What good evidence? Not really. Any father would know his daughter’s name of course. The problem is that her name is not Susan it is Suzanne. I have never come across any father who would not know his daughter’s name. I was sorely disappointed that the lady in question, never shy in coming forward on spiritual matters, said nothing at the time. I found this out years later and cannot believe that the rest of the sitters left the seance being falsely led to believe they had witnessed something that was simply not true.
I do believe that spirit would want us to investigate and discuss these occasions, as forever we are told to question and question again!
I attended the DT seance on Friday 19th, the third that week. I have no doubt whatsoever that the medium remained in his seat for the entire hour and three-quarters, something that not many would wish to experience without being “out of it”. There was one evidential communication from a lady’s grandfather. She seemed blown away by it. I did not ask her but I doubt she has a blog which could be accessed for the information she was given. Two other members of the circle were all controlled by adjacent sitters holding their hands so would have been aware of movement. The third was operating the music. It was certainly not her that spoke to me and placed a large hand on my head.
I was involved on many occasions in Noah’s Ark Society with preparation of rooms and chairs etc for seances and can only say from my own experience then that the opportunity for fraud was eliminated. The added factor then was that we (my wife and I) grew to understand the high level of integrity of the two mediums that demonstrated their gift. In my view David is a gifted and (as all physical mediums must be) brave person. My only wonder is why the controls are not able to arrange for more evidential communications to take place, which would help to negate these veiled accusations. It may be that they just do not have sufficient ability
Your last two sentences sum up the dilemma neatly, Roy. The fact is that most people who attend DT’s seances do so because, having read glowing reports of what goes on, they expect to see and hear far more than is actually presented. If the reason for this, as you surmise, is that his spirit controls “just do not have sufficient ability”, then why is he currently on an international tour? He could use the time much more profitably staying at home and continuing to develop his powers, until such time as he can produce physical phenomena that is demonstrably genuine to those who witness it.
I experienced a David Thompson seance at the Doris Ann centre in Shropshire last Frday. Whist I agree with the sequence and description of events, the sceptism shown revolves completely around DT getting out of the chair, leaving the cabinet and being able to wander around the room in pitch darkness for two hours. I admit he could have been wearing night vision googles, but he was searched, as was the cabinet before he was strapped in. There were two messages that were evidential but I agree there should have been more. I attended with three others and we paid £40 each, all first timers. There were no more than 25 people present. Taking into account the costs I cannot beleive DT makes very much, and it is certainly not worth ruining a reputation for. If he cannot get out of the chair (I do not see how he can) he must have at least two accomplices to do the impersonations and carry him out of the cabinet at the end etc. Where were they hidden in the room? All four of us covered the entire seance room and can vouch no sitter moved from their chair.There was no way anybody could have entered the room or was in the cabinet with DT.
I can understand the mind being sceptical as it is witnessing events that seem to be impossible, but until the skeptics can answer the above questions in a realistic way their arguements smack of some sort of prejudice. As a spectacle it was impressive. It seems to me the purpose of the evening was to demonstate spirit power rather than individual messages which can be given in private sittings or in a demonstation in a spiritualist church.
Hi Ernest,
William, David’s guide, always stated the need to prove life beyond death, proof of survival. I for one do not believe that David has trap doors etc etc as already mentioned.
What could be better than a loved one standing in the room in full form talking to you as opposed to someone giving messages off a stage or in a one to one situation. This would be the greatest moment in most people’s lives. A moment with such significance that it would affect a whole family for ever, who would now know beyond doubt that there is continuity of life. How important would that be?
How would you feel if communication came through for you or one of your friends? Would you want it to be clear? How would you look at the evidence given to someone else in the room? Would you feel let down if they were just caught up with the evening or pressured and you then found out later that it wasn’t true?
A lady who went to DT’s seances, and still does, had her husband materialise in front of her in a seance years ago to show her his wedding ring on his finger. She was allowed to touch it. What a loving act, although it doesn’t prove a thing does it – only a ring that men wear. The point to this is that he never wore a ring! So it would not prove evidence if he had always worn a ring and causes tremendous doubt because he never did wear one.
Hi Paul,
Paul said:- “Denzil will remember his friend called Sue being called Susan by her father who came through in a seance. What good evidence? Not really. Any father would know his daughter’s name of course. The problem is that her name is not Susan it is Suzanne. I have never come across any father who would not know his daughter’s name.”
Whilst I agree with you, as I do, on many other points relating to so-called evidence coming through at David’s seances all those years ago before he left the UK, I would have to point out that he also came through my entranced Mother, in our family home circle, on 3 seperate occasions and each time he called her forward as Susan…where’s the logic in that??
Paul said: “It was not you that I was referring to at all it was Micky B and it was in a DT seance in Banbury. I did not know that this had happened to you before.
Sorry for the confusion Paul thought we had spoken of this.
Warm wishes
Hello Roy,
Roy said “You’ve lost me there, Denzil. Are you saying that if I had asked the question, William may have done something that would have dispelled my doubts? If so, I don’t buy that. If William is capable of producing awe-inspiring and gob-smackingly evidential phenomena, why doesn’t he get on and do it, without needing to be asked, instead of repeating the same set-piece phenomena such as reversing a cardigan back-to-front at every one of his seances? Now, if William had taken me by the hand and led me to the medium, seated in his chair, and invited me to feel both of them … that would have dissolved my doubts. But he didn’t. So, I’m left with another “may be” possibility, which is that may be he couldn’t for reasons that should be fairly obvious.”
Roy…it appears you would now like William to be able to read your mind as well as produce gobsmacking evidence…or perhaps he did?…wasn’t there a comment from him during the seance, when he introduced himself to you, regarding you having a very inquisitive mind (or words to that effect)…perhaps knowing that made him a little suspicious. The trouble now is that you will never know what he could have offered to show you, had you just asked…you may even have missed out on the most amazing piece of evidence ever produced in a seance room…who knows?
As for repeatable phenomena/evidence…is that not what our scientists have been demanding these past 160 years? You would surely know if you sat with other physical mediums currently demonstrating that the format for the majority of their demo’s is also pretty identical…and like David’s mediumship i would suggest that theirs has also progressed forward during the years they have been demonstrating.
Regards
And so the arguments go on and on. Both sides have valid reasons for their opinions and we should all respect that. One of the problems is that many people who attend a physical seance are so deperate to witness something that they can be fooled by their own anxiety.
Whilst seances are held in complete darkness we will never have solid evidence of what is alleged to have happened. Only when physical seances are held in some form of light so that all present can actually see the materialisations taking place, as in the Minnie Harrison circle for instance, will the doubts be removed.
A very interesting discussion and I congratulate Roy for giving us two versions, with views as a believer and a sceptic.
Whilst I have little doubt that communication with the Spirit world does exist, having experienced the receiving and giving of information so specific that it could not have been guessed at, and also a couple of experiences of physical occurrences that also could not have been produced by any other means I feel that demonstrations of Physical Mediumship that are conducted in total darkness not only prove nothing (because nothing can been seen by the naked eye) but also give plenty of ammunition to the sceptic.
There have been in the past century many reports of genuine Physical Mediumship under tightly controlled conditions which has proved to those attending that the process is genuine, so why oh why must we now have these demonstrations in total darkness. Over the last century we have also had reports of fake demonstrations, with many so called Mediums blatantly caught cheating, which has done nothing to promote spiritualism, just give further credibility to the sceptic.
Until a demonstration can be held in red light, or better still white light, and allowed to be videoed and photographed, the general public will not accept that survival has been proved. Every effort towards this has been refused or thwarted with a variety of excuses as to why it cannot be done. Surely now, in this time of World conflict, would not this be a good time for Spirit to allow this to happen; perhaps it would be able to do some good.
Tin trumpets and back to front cardigans. Wow! I am totally underwhelmed.
Surely in this technological age we could have something better. Say, two tin cans connected with ectoplasm string or silver chord.
Victor brought your comments to my attention. I’m Tony, who was given one of the personal messages. I do remember speaking to you briefly after the seance, and the humorous remark you made about William having one hand and two feet. My more positive blog on the seance can be found here: http://www.tonypapard.info/?p=3399 Please also read the Comments afterwards, especially my reply to Julie in which I say that such seances in the dark will never convince skeptics and other forms of ADC are at least as evidential (in fact more so in many cases).
I attended a previous seance with David Thompson in June and played ‘Devil’s Advocate’ by surmising how the various phenomena might have been faked with accomplices, though I personally felt they were genuine, not least because Louis’ voice came from the center of the room and on that occasion the background music to ‘Wonderful World’ came from a music player outside the circle, so it certainly wasn’t a record of Louis’ being played.
I must say I think the voices of Louis and Quentin sounded remarkably like them in life, but as I said I didn’t recognize the voice of my partner
George. Victor (and George via other ADCs since the seance) has explained that it takes a lot of practice to get the voice right.
The mention of 28 years was puzzling but I’ve now concluded this was a
cryptic message for me relating to the Berlin Wall which stood intact for
that period. I always believed it was a necessity, and still do, but George
was always opposed to it. That weekend was the 50th anniversary of its
construction, so he might well have mentioned it cryptically, he was fond of such symbolism. The Berlin Wall was a barrier separating loved ones, like the barrier between this world and the next. George after the seance
mentioned ‘openings or rifts’ and this could describe both what happened to the Berlin Wall 28 years after its construction and what happens at physical seances and indeed during clairvoyance, etc.
I can see where you’re coming from, and it is a huge shift in one’s
paradigms to accept the astounding reality of physical mediumship no matter how much one has read about it, so one searches for rational explanations. Unfortunately, since it all takes place in the dark and David himself tells people where to sit, it is all to easy to find such explanations, which would have to include accomplices traveling with him. More than just one I’d have thought. David does channel William’s voice in trance, but can he do all the other voices as well? It does stretch the imagination rather. Can he sing like Louis Armstrong?
I agree the personal message I received was not that convincing at the time, though seems more so now I’ve explained the significance of 28 (inspired by a dream about the Berlin Wall last night, a week after the seance.) You could say I’m clutching at straws, but it does all make sense to me now. Sandy was also quite evidential, as George was very fond of dogs and this was one of a friend of ours. (incidentally Sandy was only mentioned in a chapter of my biography, posted on my blog, about the demise of his owner, Freddie Williams. I find it rather unlikely David Thompson would have found this reference and chosen it in a book which is very lengthy when other names were recurring regularly thruout the book, that of friends of ours. As only the name was mentioned, it was not necessary the person or dog had passed to spirit. Sandy was not a dog George was particularly fond of, but one we were concerned about when we heard Freddie had died.)
I can’t believe that it was all fraud, however, since Victor Zammit,
scientist Ron Pearson, Montague Keen, etc. have all sat at Thompson’s
seances and pronounced them genuine (though Keen only once, it seems). I also consider myself a good judge of character, and feel both David and Christine came across as genuine. Also remember Ron Wilkes daughter Jenny has had her come thru several times and even sign or write her name. I’m sure he wouldn’t be fooled or entertain a fraud at Jenny’s Sanctuary.
But, I have to agree with you, I’ve had better evidence of survival at a
clairvoyance meeting at the Fairfield Halls with Colin Fry who described my grandmother’s death, gave her first name, and intricate details of what
happened to my mother’s kitchen which he couldn’t have possibly known about (in fact he didn’t even know I was in the audience as someone else claimed the message as soon as the name was given out, but later it became clear to me it could be for nobody but myself.)
I’ve just asked George about your skepticism and he describes it as
‘reactionary’ and ‘retarding progress’. However I feel it is a natural first
reaction. I can’t say whether William was wearing trainers of course as he
never stood on my feet, but I do feel it would be difficult to tell trainer
soles from a ridged sole of some other kind of shoe or boot which William
might well have worn.
I did find the whole thing rather theatrical, and was aware of Harry Houdini and other illusionists’ amazing escapes from bonds, so being tied to a chair and gagged is not in itself positive proof against trickery.
I have also said the repeated visits by Louis, Quentin, Mae, etc. seem
rather repetitious, however I believe other physical mediums also had
regular visitors, explainable perhaps if voices take a lot of practice to
recreate for the spirits who once owned them. Though of course this argument could go both ways if the medium or an accomplice could do those voices better than other ones.
Finally George is saying the physical seance was ‘insubstantial’. He said as much to me afterwards telepathically: Was it worth all the effort me getting to this place without a car and him trying to materialize and recreate his voice, when I get communication with him so easily here at home almost every day? But George also says David has the potential to develop further and be able to perform regularly in subdued light. That would be really evidential for all of us, to see ectoplasm forming and disappearing. George also told me, long ago, that ‘David is the one’ and he confirmed that to me last week after the seance. So no, he is not a fraud, but to convince skeptics he needs to be able to perform at least some of the time at every seance in red light so we can see the ectoplasm, etc.
Hi Tony why would Victor draw your attention to this and yet not enter the debate himself. I understand the two of you are friends but it is important that, if Victor has a different point of view he personally brings it forward not you.
You talk of scepticism but people are asking questions who are already deep believers in the proof of survival. That is not sceptical it is following the worn path of our pioneers who allways tested the spiruts properly. I ask you would David Thompson ever have allowed Maurice Barbanell into his seances, he was one of the greatest debumkers and challengers of Mediums we have ever seen, What would Victor have said about him if he had challenged David?
it is time to look at all of this rationally and deal with th eissues. If David is as he claims, which neither I nor you know, why not accept a modern scientific challenge.
Eleanor Landreau said
“Thank God there are people like you, Roy Stemman, and Sue Farrow, to keep Spiritualism pointed in the right direction, reminding us that we are all on a path of evolution and should be using gifts like physical mediumship to ask the necessary questions. *It is by our questions that we show we are ready for the knowledge that will not be given otherwise.”
Have to agree with you Eleanor…it’s a great shame Mr Stemmen missed the opportunity of asking William about his footwear 😦
aruuel said “Tin trumpets and back to front cardigans. Wow! I am totally underwhelmed.”
That was pretty much the mainstay of (my Uncle) Jack Webber’s public demonstrations…trumpet levitation and jacket dematerialisation. These were in the main carried out in the dark along with partial materialisations, apports, hands and faces shown via an illuminating plaque, showing production of and photographing Ectoplasm in red light. Many, if not all, of these phenomena have been experienced in David Thompson’s seances (restricted to less than 40 seances per year including home/development circles)…perhaps not to the level or indeed quality described in Harry Edward’s book of Jack’s Mediumship but one would have to consider that even my Uncle’s seances (up to 200 in one year) may not always have been filled with the level of evidential communication demanded from our physical mediums of today.
Best Wishes.
Interesting what Denzil, Jack Webber’s nephew, has to say about his uncle’s seances. Pictures in Zerdin Phenomenal magazine give the impression of much more impressive phenomena. It does seem, with few exceptions, that physical mediumship requires a Hell of a lot of commitment, development and risk to the medium for relatively poor results. If the main evidence relies on messages from Spirit rather than physical phenomena then clairvoyance and other methods of ADC seem more practical. However we all hope physical mediumship will develop further and well beyond tricks such as reversing cardigans and making cardboard cones fly around in the dark.
Hi All,
Just to comment on a few of the points made in the last few posts.
Den – how did Sue’s father get away with it four times to my knowledge (now) of getting his daughter’s name wrong? How reliable are Sue and others for accepting blatantly wrong info? How reliable are any sitters? When we have to question sitters for not accepting true info and then learn that others have accepted wrong info without good explanation, it casts the shadow of doubt everywhere.
Monty did sit only once, as said before. For the sake of accuracy I will add that there was no scientific test as claimed by Victor, David and the Zerdin Fellowship. They all knew my frustration but ignored it which means they do not care what is out there. Monty claimed in his report that he was cut by spirit on his thumb during the seance. He then remembered it had been cut during gardening that same day. Diluting the scientific approach, I feel.
In the seance where Monty came through for us to make a recording for Monty’s remembrance day, he struggled and got his friend’s name wrong. I questioned this only for “Monty to get irritated. Why would a man of science get so cross? This objection of mine is on record as I would not have it removed by Chris Hunt who took the recording. Part of this was played on ITV to Philip Schofield and Fern Brittan. My objection was not in there, of course. It was never mentioned anywhere in fact.
One of the points raised in previous posts is that nothing could be assured until it was in light. Many moons ago when we had a seance in a very small room with only a handful of people an amazing thing happened. I was asked to stand up. They (Spirit?) brought David into the middle of the room and turned him and the chair upside down with him strappped to the chair. I could feel his head down by my waist height and all four chair legs on the ceiling which I could reach easily. This went on for minutes. I can say that I nor several people could have done this – lift a man in a chair upside down. When he was turned the right way I was asked to grab the chair. The leg was like rubber and floppy. This was all done in the dark. Had I been blind I would have given the same report, would I not. The trouble is you only have my word on it. If you doubt me on this I would completely understand. It does not prove survival but physical phenomina only. I would have a lie detector test of course without fear.
Tony Papard made the comment:
“I can’t say whether William was wearing trainers of course as he
never stood on my feet, but I do feel it would be difficult to tell trainer
soles from a ridged sole of some other kind of shoe or boot which William
might well have worn.”
With respect to Tony, I must point out there is a certain fallacy in that statement. It is not in whether a person could accurately perceive the difference between the soles of a trainer or some other kind of shoe or boot when their foot is trodden on in a totally darkened room. It is the fact that the alleged entity called William, or more accurately known as William Charles Cadwell, never wore ANY kind of shoe or boot since he never existed.
There has been comprehensive research undertaken which establishes conclusively that the ‘voice’ channelled by Thompson when apparently in trance, and the alleged spirit entity that purports to ‘materialise’ in a totally dark room and touches peoples heads and stands on their feet, never had a physical life in which to wear shoes or boots for that matter.
The physical lifetime claimed for that ‘William’ did not occur. There was no such person. They did not live. They did not die. They did not and do not exist. If a non-existent person who never had the life they claim can be ‘channelled’ by Thompson I see no reason why we should not also question whether any of the other alleged personalities ‘channelled’ by that medium, or purportedly materialised in the darkness, might also not be what or who they claim to be.
Before the seance either David or his partner, I can’t remember, said records had been found for William Charles Cadwell. I myself just did a rudimentary search on the Internet giving a birth year in London of 1830 and found immediately 8 William Charles Cadwells, William Cadwells or Charles William Cadwells who died in London between the years 1838 and 1917, though none for the year 1897. The nearest being 1889. So to say he didn’t exist presumes the name and dates he gives are absolutely accurate, that the historical records are absolutely accurate, and the place of birth/death are also absolutely accurate. I’m not sure when the birth and death dates of 1830-1897 were given, but since Tim apparently claims to have known William and he was born in 1899 these birth/death dates seem rather unreliable. Do spirits retain accurate knowledge of things like this in a dimension where time doesn’t exist? Also various calendars are used even in this world – the Muslim one, the Jewish one, the modern Christian one, etc. The Russian Bolshevik Revolution took place on October 25th 1917 according to the old Julian calendar, but is November 7th, 1917 by the current Gregorian one.
I also wonder if real names are given or pseudonyms. If I came back as a guide to a public medium, would I want every Tom, Dick and Harry to be able to research all the details of my life? Possibly not and I might well assume a false identity. Silver Birch was apparently not known by that name when on Earth, I read recently what his real name was, but it slips my mind at the moment.
Hi Tony,
Genealogy is such a complex topic, and unfortunately a cursory approach does not do it justice. Lis is an expert in this area and I suggest you check out her brilliant research on the ages of the Fox Sister in Psypioneer. Of course she also crossed swords with Guy Lyon Playfair over the non-existence of William Charles Cadwell. You may wish to check out this blog from Michael Prescott. You will have to work your way through all the posts to find the very detailed birth, death and census research which Lis completed. The link is http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2008/08/rethinking-david-thompson.html?cid=130579636#comments
Now, at the end of this, Playfair, who had been used as the expert who had proved the existence of William Charles Cadwell , admitted:
“In view of the passions Mr Cadwell still seems to arouse, I went through my 2003 notebook and found this for December:
‘Mormon FHC: William Charles Cadwell, b. 1843 London. Only one’. [meaning no other Cadwells on file]
I didn’t note date of death which I should have, and next time I’m down that way I’ll pop in and check.
Posted by: Guy Lyon Playfair | September 13, 2008 at 11:40 AM “
There is no such record to discredit Lis’s research, so I am sorry: William Charles Cadwell did not exist.
Now David Thompson himself was definite and absolutely sure about this, in the same Michael Prescott blog you will find reference to a Spiritualist Forum where
“Back on Sep 27 2007 David Thompson wrote on the SCR, when referring to his various guides:
“my main friend and contact is: William Charles Cadwell, who passed in 1897. (William was check up by the SPR when Monty Keen did his report into my mediumship and was found).”
Subsequently, when the statement which appeared to suggest Montegue Keen had found ‘Cadwell’, was challenged, and Keen’s wife confirmed he had not searched for this information, David Thompson then claimed that it was you ( Guy Lyon Playfair) who had done the research and had confirmed that his ‘guide’ William Charles Cadwell had been born 1830 and died 1897.”
Now there is no doubt about this and when this fails, so, sadly, does evidence of Timothy who was born in 1899. Sadly there is no evidence of Timothy, either birth or death. The UK records, from their inception, are extremely comprehensive and none of the key data was lost to the wars. Not only that, but every serious genealogist knows many ways to cross-reference material to avoid error. None of David Thompson’s guides seemed to have had the physical existence they claimed.
So we are back to whether those claims are important or not.
It is irrelevant to try and compare David Thompson’s guides to Silver Birch or even Stainton Moses’s Imperator. These guides never made precise claims about who they were and when they lived and died. On the other hand David Thompson and his alleged guide William have repeatedly and emphatically claimed a specific life and death as evidence of their validity. We can therefore only go to the value of what they say.
William Charles Cadwell has, with his link between Downs Syndrome and AIDS, recommendation of Aspirins to prevent Down’s Syndrome for pregnant women and many other such pronouncements, proved to be a very unwise spirit.
Sadly David fails to convince me. I feel that somewhere between Paul Barker’s time as circle leader of David’s UK Haymist Circle (with all the experience that circle had in Physical Mediumship) and the current COSC, something may have gone amiss.
Hi Tony, Thanks for your thoughts on this interesting aspect of David Thompson’s mediumship.
I don’t wish to appear argumentative but I really must challenge (politely of course) several of your comments. First, that if you do a rudimentary search on the Internet givng “a birth year of London 1830” that you will immediately find “8 William Charles Cadwells, William Cadwells or Charles William Cadwells who died in London between 1838 and 1917.”
Rudimentary searches are always rather risky things to rely on but, even if one does, in reality to google “William Charles Cadwell born 1830 London” in fact one sees the first 4 entries link to Michael Precott’s blog where the very issue of William Charles Cadwell’s existence or lack of existence was extensively covered. The next entry takes you to the ‘Questions For David Thompson’ about his alleged spirit guide, while the following three entries refer to totally unrelated people before again a site referencing David Thompson’s own claims about William.
Again, if one googles “William Charles Cadwell 1830 London” we see a very similiar line up and if one merely puts in “William Charles Cadwell” we see a Prescott blog entry followed by a Lewis Sutton review followed by the facebook page for a living person. Of course if one goes to ancestry.com, we can see a number of Charles William Cadwells, which is not of course the name of the guide that so eloguently communicates in Thompson seances, and only one William Charles Cadwell, who was baptised in 1843 in St Martin’s in the Fields. This fine fellow was actually born a year earlier, but as the son of a waterman was not baptised until later and sadly he died as a very young lad well before the year 1897 claimed by the “William” who purports to communicate through Thompson.
I should also point out that I have no doubt someone, be it Thompson or his partner Christine, may have claimed that records had been found for “William.” This inaccurate claim has been repeatedly made over the years and in essence has always relied on the apparent “research” done by Guy Lyon Playfair. However, there is ample information on the internet which highlights that Playfair did only a cursory investigation, out of a casual interest after attending a Thompson seance, and is on record as acknowledging that the only record he found was the baptism of the William son of a Waterman I have mentioned above and a death which he inadvertently recorded as Cadwell which was in reality a William Charles Caldwell, a man who had never been known as Cadwell, was not born in 1830 and did not die in 1897 either.
I am sure that Mr Playfair is a decent researcher and when undertaking a serious piece of research he would have gone far beyond what he did in the Thompson case. But he only took a cursory look out of curiosity. He did not undertake a comprehensive piece of research to “prove” the earthly existence of William Charles Cadwell. Others have undertaken that genuine and thorough research and have, as I noted in my original comments, found no substance to the claims.
You suggest that to say “he didn’t exist presumes the name and dates he gives are absolutely accurate, that the historical records are absolutely accurate, and the place of birth/death are also absolutely accurate.” Well, of course one should presume they are accurate since “William” and David Thompson have repeatedly claimed they are. These dates are from the mouth of “William” himself. They are not figures, dates, or an existence that others have claimed for William.
Of course all historical records are bound to have within them inaccuracies, but for EVERY record that exists in the UK between 1830 and 1900 relating to the birth or death or residence or education or attendance at a college or university (I include that since ‘William” claims to have been a man of science) to fail to record the existence of this William goes way beyond the rational possiblity of inaccuracy or omission.
As for the inconsistency of Timothy apparently claiming he knew William, yet Timothy allegedly was born after William allegedly died, I would not worry about that too much, since Timothy didn’t exist either. He was not born when he claims, nor did he die when alleged. So Timothy’s claims can equally be ignored.
This post is already very long so I will leave further comment for another post.
“Of course all historical records are bound to have within them inaccuracies, but for EVERY record that exists in the UK between 1830 and 1900 relating to the birth or death or residence or education or attendance at a college or university (I include that since ‘William” claims to have been a man of science) to fail to record the existence of this William goes way beyond the rational possiblity of inaccuracy or omission.”
Dear Lis, may I respectfully point out that not finding a trace of someone in past records for births, marriages or deaths does not mean that the person didn’t exist. I have been doing genealogical research on my family tree for some while now on Ancestry and other sites I can say that it’s not uncommon to find these records missing, especially as in the early 1800s it was not a requirement by law to register births, marriages and deaths, and often the only records being those recorded for baptisms in Parish registers, most of which have not been transcribed yet. Surprisingly it’s not uncommon to fail to find death records for people who died in the 1900s either.
Birth dates are often out by a year or two, sometimes five years or more, as it was common for people, for whatever reason, to lie about their age on censuses, marriage records, etc. We have to take dates with a pinch of salt when doing genealogical searches.
I have no real interest in knowing whether William or Timothy actually existed, or whether the Medium made them up, or false info was given by the Spirit contact; what my interest in this blog would like to know is why the whole thing was not done in red or subdued white light so that real evidence could have been seen.
Love and Light, Mike.
Hi Mike,
I most definitely agree with your last remark about wanting to know why the whole thing was not done in red light or subdued white light so that real evidence could be seen. I think that unless the conditions in the seance room do include some level of light sufficient to allow people to visually witness what is occurring, what goes on is of little real value in terms of providing evidence of survival.
I am surprised though that you “have no real interest in knowing whether William or Timothy ever existed, or whether the medium made them up, or false information was given by the spirit contact.” Surely the validity of the identity claimed by the alleged spirit, given that alleged spirit, and the medium and his circle, place such importance on that specific identity (or in this case identities) goes to the very heart of the validity of what is going on in the seance room.
Let us consider the various possibilities carefully. If William and Timothy, for example, did not actually ever exist as they state then, rationally, we are obliged to question the genuineness, not only of the apparent ‘spirit’ contact but also its value as evidence of survival over death. Non-existent people cannot prove they have survived death or can they be used to support the argument for the reality of human survival over physical death. Real people, whose existence can be verified, and who are known to those present in the seance room, and who give accurate and legitimate information about their earthly life which information can be objectively verified is what is needed to prove the case for survival.
If that which purports to communicate is false, as a rational person who is interested in finding proof to support the survival hypothesis, one must surely next consider whether these apparent communicators, who have lied about their existence in the physical earth world might be the product of the imagination of the medium. The medium might quite genuinely be unaware of the false personality that has been created by their subconscious mind, or of course in other cases, this deception may be quite conscious and deliberate. The necessity is of course to establish whether the apparent entity or entities are a fabrication, and then whether that has been done deliberately or unconsciously. Either way, the reality is that what is occuring is not genuine and cannot be seen as providing evidence for survival which is what the seance is meant to be achieving.
Then we have the argument that the entities may be real spirits but ones that for some unknown and unadmitted reason have given false information, indeed, in this case detailed false information which gives the appearance of them once being genuine physical people who walked the earth. Over recent years I have read a lot of rubbish about how a real person in spirit might lie to hide their identity and so William may be genuine but have made up a false personality to keep his real identity secret. It is rubbish because a real spirit person who did not wish to reveal his true identity doesn’t need to lie to achieve that aim. They simply avoid giving any details or claim it doesn’t matter who they are, etc. Of course any real spirit person who lies must be seen as suspect in some respects, for if they are not who they claim, why should anyone believe that they really do exist in the spirit world or that they have the ability to do what they claim. Now Victor Zammit, in his lively defence of William, is on record as saying they (that is the circle of the silver cord) do not claim that those who appear in Thompson’s seances are actually who they claim they are but this doesn’t matter, after all it is what they have to say that matters. Well, William is on record and what he has to say about such matters as Aids and Downes Syndrome and Aspirin, for example, and that is just one of many statements that really do highlight just how much credence and value we should be giving to what that alleged entity has to say. Such wisdom, the world does not need.
As for your remarks about birth , marriage and death records, I can only respectfully respond by saying that official registration for such records was introduced in the September quarter of 1837. It was compulsory, however, not all complied in the early years until more significant fines were introduced for failure to register a birth. Of course the parish records continued to be the place where baptisms, marriages and deaths were also recorded and while not all parish records have been transcribed and placed online, and some, such as those for Erith between the 1750 and 1803 were destroyed, the majority do continue to be available and one can go to any Family History centre and view these on microfilm. For those who wished to marry, if they had not for some reason been baptised as a child, were obliged to be baptised as an adult and the parish priest would insert their date and year of birth into the parish record. Of course some marriages are mis-recorded in the government records, but usually a look at the parish records solves the problem. As for deaths, some fall through the cracks or at least at first appear to because the person has left the country and have died elsewhere, but by the time William claims he died, every death was required to be registered before the body could be buried. No burial would take place until that occurred.
Finally, in terms of the accuracy or otherwise of ages recorded in the census records, no doubt some people lied, a good example of that would be Ann Leah Fox (Fish, Underhill) who consistently lied about her age in every census, progressively becoming 10, then 15 and more years younger than she actually was, but of course her baptismal record can be found which puts her lies to rest. Many others did not so much lie, but in reality be ignorant of their actual age due to illiteracy or early separation from family who would know their correct age. Then of course there was the rounding down of peoples ages in early census records, and one cannot dismiss inaccuracies caused by the census enumerator as well. But what is patently obvious is that very few people failed to be recorded as born and married and died, and there are many other means for establishing even those peoples identities and earthly existence.
If you have had trouble finding an ancestor or two, please do not hesitate to pass on the names and details you have to the editor who will forward them to me and I will see what I can do to help find them.
Paul asked:- “Den – how did Sue’s father get away with it four times to my knowledge (now) of getting his daughter’s name wrong? How reliable are Sue and others for accepting blatantly wrong info? How reliable are any sitters? When we have to question sitters for not accepting true info and then learn that others have accepted wrong info without good explanation, it casts the shadow of doubt everywhere.”
Hi Paul…perhaps the important thing to be aware of is that his daughter Sue was accepting of his presence even though “we” perceived him to be calling for Susan. I have met Sue’s father on a number of occasions, at family gatherings, he is from Cornwall and has a strong west country accent…I don’t know for sure but perhaps Suzanne can come across as a Susan sound in that dialect? Perhaps there are Cornish readers out there who could advise?
I also recall the seance at Chalgrove when Monty returned…no excuse for the communicator getting agitated!… unless of course, and it’s only a suggestion, your unexpected interuption was sufficient, possibly, to spoil his train of thought. As we are told by Spirit communicators it can be very difficult for newbies to hold on to the energy and subsequently what they are wanting to convey. It was still pretty much early days from his passing and I guess it would still have been very alien for him to be speaking through the ectoplasm…or perhaps, like Sue’s father, it may also have been an accentual thing. As I recall he was speaking to his friend and colleague from the SPI, Guy Lyon Playfair, who was present at the seance and the name he spoke sounded like Guy Lyon Playfer, which you picked him up on. Perhaps, Monty, having his train of thought interupted, after all he’s only human, simply became too much for him. If you recall the main purpose of the seance was for him to make a post mortem speech to be played for his colleagues at a special SPI memorial gathering?
warm regards
Hi All,
Pseudonyms are a great get-out for all non-proven spirit communicators. I don’t care what the names are – just be honest about it as it leads to obvious credibility issues.
People often say that spirit get the medium out of the chair. If they do not tell us what they are doing, it is fraudulent. It is making out that something is what it is not. We must stand up for these principles.
I thank you Jim for your comment but can assure that I would never have put up with the aspirin claim that was made. I have had a few rows with people over this one and it was removed from DT’s site pretty quickly. I would like to ask Victor and David about where they stand on this one issue. Pretty black and white for a lawyer, I would have thought. How would Victor or David feel if a relative of theirs took the aspirin to avoid such a case and then had problems with their health, as we know aspirin can do? I asked him before why it was removed from the site but got no answer. If it was right then it would still be there right now, surely.
Den, Sue would have known her father’s accent or should have questioned it. The issue is twofold, the wrong name and the not mentioning it for that length of time on several occasions. Even in discussions it has never come out that this had happened before.
I would be sorely disappointed if my asking a sensible question to Monty in a polite, non-threatening way were to have irritated him. The passion of Monty’s work in life was not for the memorial but to prove survival after death. I do get the fact that it might be hard to come through, although he had been through many times in between his passing and the seance mentioned. It was “Monty” who had asked in previous seances for the whole thing to be set up.
Where would I have stood if I hadn’t questioned Monty? It would have made me a blind follower. David is the man I was best man for, travelled thousands of miles with and gave countless hours for, so as to protect and promote his mediumship. Nonetheless, the principle stands.
warm regards
This may be of interest to some readers:-
At the same David Thompson seance discussed earlier, Monty spoke to his friend of a book that he (Guy) had written following an investigation by Guy and Maurice Grosse. Both gentlemen had been called in, on behalf of the SPI, to help out in an investigation involving poltergeist activity. The book is called “This House Is Haunted” which relates to a house in Enfield…details of the house were kept a secret by Guy and the address was not published in his book…however, Monty correctly related back to Guy the event, the name of the street and the house number which Guy verified as being correct…information that David could not have possibly known about.
warmest wishes.
Denzil my friend. The Enfield Poltergeist event was probably the most famous poltergeist event ever published in the UK. It got wide coverage in the local and National press at the time, so the location would certainly have not been a secret. And incidentally, despite reports at the time of it being genuine it has forever after been the subject of serious doubt.
Hi Mike,
Have tried the Google approach but still unable to find mention of the actual house number in Green Street…other than checking through electoral rolls which would seem to be a bit of a waste of time as I believe false names were used in Playfair’s book anyway…perhaps you would do the honours as I am no whiz on the computer?
I’m also not quite sure why you would think David would bother going to the extreme to fake Montague Keene’s identity in an effort to try and dupe MK’s friends (which also included Robin & Sandra Foy) in a seance which had been arranged, without any fee to David Thompson, for the main purpose of attempting to make a post mortem speech to be played at MK’s memorial day at the SPR? This special seance was, I believe, arranged at the request of “the alleged” MK during a previous DT home circle presumably led by Paul Barker or another responsible circle member…they, surely, must have thought he was the real deal to go along with his request and going to the trouble of organising for around 13 people to meet in a house in Oxfordshire?
Regards
Denzil
p.s. noted from Wikipeadia that one of the children, preumably now grown up, has since publicly stated that although she did play a few tricks on the Investigators at the time there was no way she or the other children could have produced the phenomena witnessed even if they wanted to.
Paul commented:-
“Den, Sue would have known her father’s accent or should have questioned it. The issue is twofold, the wrong name and the not mentioning it for that length of time on several occasions. Even in discussions it has never come out that this had happened before.”
Hi Paul: Perhaps she did recognise her own father’s personality and accent…perhaps that’s why she didn’t have a problem accepting it was him.
As in my earlier posting mine are only speculations as to the possible reasons for these anomolies…I’m happy to confess that I don’t know the answers to why these things happen…isn’t that why we are discussing them?
Kind Regards.
When I picked up Guy to take him to the seance I had real difficulty stopping him talking to me about this investigation and other such research he had done. I am not sure I have ever met such a nice chap but he was willing to tell me lots of things that I had the potential to have used, being David’s associate.
During the journey I would want the researcher to have spoken to me about the weather and other such unpredictable things, not spiritual experiences. I want to add that even if he had told me anything I would not have told David.
To be fair to David he did not ask me once about any information regarding sitters. This is why it is so sad that he cannot see that by the procedures he is taking that do not improve his security and safety anyway. In fact, they make it easier for someone to be wayward in a seance. After all, where better to create mayhem than in the dark? He is taking away his chances to prove himself.
warm regards
I have two further main comments to make:
One is not to take medical advice from someone who lived, or claims to have lived, well over 100 years ago. Aspirin may well have been the cure-all new ‘wonder-drug’ at one time, so perhaps this is evidential. Would anyone faking it nowadays suggest giving aspirin to cure HIV and prevent Downs Syndrome babies? But I personally wouldn’t think it a good idea to take medical advice from William or anyone around at that time.
Second, I was most impressed by Paul Barker’s experience with David Thompson upside down with his chair legs on the ceiling, then when reversed right way up, the chair legs felt like rubber. Although all in the dark, this is surely conclusive proof that real physical phenomena were taking place. And Paul, you said you’re willing to take a lie detector test on this.
The various anomalies with not being able to check out whether William/Tim even existed (or historical records suggesting they did not exist at the time they claim they did), with people not sounding like they did in life – all this is surely of secondary importance if physical phenomena such as described by Paul are actually happening under the cover of darkness. Not proof of survival, perhaps, but that can be obtained thru clairvoyance and other methods of ADC. That’s how I checked up my partner came thru at the seance. Had I been able to see him materialize in full or partial light, of course, or had his voice sounded as it did in life, then this confirmation by other methods would not have been necessary.
There are two aspects of physical mediumship. One is the physical phenomena including Direct Voice and materializations, and the other is of course the messages themselves and how evidential they are. However as the latter can be obtained by other means, the essential for physical mediumship is surely, as others have said, to develop it to a point where it can be demonstrated in subdued red light or ideally in full white light.
Until that is possible what happens in the dark as regards physical phenomena will always be controversial, unless, of course, more sitters are allowed to leave the circle and feel the various physical phenomena themselves as Paul was invited to do on that occasion.
With all respect Tony we have a nonexistent Spirit Entity giving medical advice which is dangerous. As a matter of strict fact William Charles Cadwell would have to have knowledge which was beyond his life span to make such claims for a wonder drug in Aspirin. This was only patented 3 years after his claimed death by Bayer on the 27th February 1900. Of course to add to that AIDS did not exist during his lifetime. William is clearly indicating knowledge that is current and up to date for us to act upon. He also, in the original séances, said it was vital this information was given to the world
We are meant to trust the Spirits, especially William and Timothy, who the Circle of the Silver Cord say are wonderful and knowledgeable. Surely if we cannot trust the information they give us then their presence has no value, as we must essentially mistrust their every pronouncement. This is not a valid addition to our contact with the world of Spirit.
I am also concerned about your statement that
“There are two aspects of physical mediumship. One is the physical phenomena including Direct Voice and materializations, and the other is of course the messages themselves and how evidential they are. However as the latter can be obtained by other means, the essential for physical mediumship is surely, as others have said, to develop it to a point where it can be demonstrated in subdued red light or ideally in full white light.”
My concern is about the messages themselves being less important because they can be obtained by other means. In honesty it is the whole issue, Physical mediumship is Proof of Survival in the same was that any Mediumship is. It is purported to be the finest evidence therefore the whole event must go together, the materialised loved one, character, style and knowledge. Anything less with trumpets flying around is more Psychic Vaudeville than Mediumship.
I do very much agree that it should be in dim light, red or blue would do for me. Beginners should start there and let their guides know this is a non negotiable issue. If Spirit cannot find a way past this handicap I would be surprised. I also agree with an earlier suggestion that thermographic video of séances would answer the problem for those intent on dark seances. These machines release less energy than a human being and are totally harmless.
We cannot distance the validity of these issues and the events in DT’s séances they are too strongly intermingled
Even today official census records, etc. are hopelessly inaccurate. A friend just told me yesterday about the empty flat upstairs where they left leaving various utility bills unpaid and census forms not filled in. Nobody will ever trace these people and others who flit about, many of them illegal immigrants. People come and go upstairs from me who don’t even speak English. I wouldn’t be surprised if London, for instance, had millions more people living here than appear in official census figures!
With respect Tony, the antics of your friends neighbours hardly bears any relevance to the issue under discussion, nor does the subject of illegal immigrants or those who don’t speak English. As for your remark that there may be millions more people living in London than appear on official census figures I will not waste my time responding to because it is a) incorrect, and b) irrelevant.
The matter under discussion is the non-exisrtence of William Charles Cadwell. His complete absence from ALL searchable records between 1830 when he claims he was born and 1897 when he claims he died.
Such fallacious arguments as you have now put forward really do little to validate Thompson, his alleged guide William or physical mediumship.
As for your comment “Even today official census records, etc, are hopelessly innacurate” I think I will forward it to the appropriate department with responsibility for the census, as I am sure it will give them a really good laugh.
I have been reading with interest, the debate on whether a certain “spirit” was an actual person who lived on the earth plane.
I wrote a comment earlier about the level of evolvement of the “guide” and the more I have been reading the more I am thinking of a lower entitity.
There seems to so many inaccuracies and issues that will not go away, issues that can be solved very easily by spirit, but for some reason they will not provide.
It is my understanding that spirit will always co-operate if the motive is right and that it will help us in our understandings of spirit.
One of the troubles we have in circles is that when certain things are happening and everyone sees it as providing “evidence”, when you look deeply at what is actually happening one can see certain issues that will not go away.
If this happens, then how many circles will be prepared to stop what they are doing and have the strength to start again, but that will also mean a possible change of thought pattern by the circle or medium as I mentioned before, Like will attract like
Nice thought John but David Thompson has given up his day job to be a professional medium just as his partner Christine Morgan has. Over here [Australia] David expects between $100-150 per person for a seance with a guaranteed miniumum of 20 -30 people. Let us say about $2,000 per seance, in the Uk around 1,000 pounds. In the USA it’s somewhere between the two. He expects air fares and accomodation. Not hard to compute an overall income in the realms of a CEO in Australia given the number of seances he does per annum plus other events.
Why oh why would he take a step back from this income to become an amateur again. People may disagree with this but I ama professional business man and have monitored Davids sojourns and earnings.
This is maybe what you did not want to hear but it is a sad reality. yes if ther is a problem with the Spirit connection I agree it is time to start again but can david afford to.
Thank you for your comment Jim.
If he decided to give up his day job because he thought what he had was sufficient to provide him with an income, then what I have been saying is very near the truth.
Was he, in his own mind a seeker of truth, or what he could get out of what ability he had, the latter I feel is nearer the mark.
All mediums should be seekers of real truth, whatever the ability they have, it should be developed continually and the main part of this is the motive and thought vibration of the medium.
If he was true to wanting to be a true worker for spirit, then being humble and recognising his faults, then he should refrain from doing what he does or be prepared to accept all the flak that comes his way.
I make no apology for my stand, poor mediumship is the baggage the movement suffers from, we need true seekers of truth, it is a commitment for life.
Jim, thank you for your comment. In fairness to David Thompson, it would be helpful if you would give readers a source for the figures you mention. Sue
Difficult Sue given I know Mr Thompson is not keen on people knowing his financial arrangements and to be honest I do not blame him. My $2,000 in Australia is based upon the minimum charge desired for a visit which was being negotiated in 2007 (20 people minimum pus $100 extra for all additional heads) and to this had to be added the payment of accomodation and air fares for 3. I do know that since then the rate has gone up and the numbers increased, the rate and number flexes between states here and countries but I will not say how I have come to know that.
The 1000 pounds is based upon his 2007/2008 trip to the UK. Clearly the charge for a seance has increased now to 45 pounds per the Jenny’s Sanctuary one. Obviusly I do not know the arrangements made in that case but would expect my 1,000 pound to be around the mark or even under it.
The reality is I have no bother about what the charge is, Mr Thompson is entitled to make as much or as little as he chooses to do and he has decided he wants to do this as a permanent career. My problem lies in the ability then to stop and go into development to try and work with Spirit to improve the evidence. Paul has mentioned that the “Spirit Light” issue was around in the Haymist Circle where Red Light was used at times in the Seance. That must have been over 10 years ago.
It was at a seance over 5 years ago where the recording shows Willaim telling the COSC members, at one of their first gatherings, that Spirit Light would come soon. Yet since then no Spirit Light and the same performance at every public seance. Surely that suggests time out is needed for a period of specific development, difficult when you are earning your living from the performances.
I was present when David was conducting his healing experience and saw the way he treated the lady with arthritis and was not happy with it. I have heard the lady has had her hip replacement. An author sponsored on here is very deaf and had treatment from David. I wonder if her deafness is cured? It would be interesting if she did comment. The advice given by David is at odds with every healing group’s respective code of conduct we as healing channels are not allowed to diagnose or give advice of any kind. I wonder if David Thompson has insurance and before any-one claims a medium in trance cannot be insured there are ways to do it, in the end David like any healing channel is responsible for his actions no matter what.
You make some interesting comments Jock. Having also had first hand experience of the claims made by David Thompson and his guide William on behalf of ‘Dr. Slavinsky’, the healing doctor, that what will occur is not faith healing, it is not a maybe healing, it is a certainty. Indeed, I can say that on one occasion when David and his doctor were at work, I was the patient. I was told in no uncertain terms that I would be healed because as the then leader of a Spiritualist church it was not good to be needing to use a walking stick. I actually needed in medical terms, total knee replacement for both knees. I am sad to say I still do.
In other words, what occurred had no effect whatsoever, and before any Thompson supporter rushes in with claims that I must not have had the necessary confidence in spirit, or other such nonsense, I was totally willing to be healed of my condition, was totally prepared to do everything to support that healing process, but nothing happened inspite of the claims I would be cured. Of course another person on the same occasion, who had suffered from partial facial paralysis for more than 20 years and who was most emphatically desirous of being healed of this disfiguring affliction, was given the same sort of promises, and sadly no cure occurred and in disillusionment she walked away from Spiritualism because she felt she had been duped by dishonest claims.
And we should not forget the woman in England who had breast cancer who was told by Thompson and his ‘guides’ that she had been cured after receiving one of his healings, only to die a short time later of that cancer.
I should add that I have been a spiritual healer for many years. I help to train healers and do not have a problem with trance healing sessions. What I do have a problem with is claims made about the abvility to cure people. That is not the healer’s role, nor do I believe, that any spirit operating from integrity would claim that as a result of their intervention (by whatever means) that a person will be healed.
It is against the law to make such claims, and I am quite sure that no healer, be they in ‘trance’ or otherwise, could ever claim they were not responsible for the damage done to person by such claims.
Mike Goodall commented:- “Denzil my friend. The Enfield Poltergeist event was probably the most famous poltergeist event ever published in the UK. It got wide coverage in the local and National press at the time, so the location would certainly have not been a secret”
Thanks Mike, I fully expected a reply of this nature and took the time prior to posting this info to have a look on line to see if the complete address had been reported…I tried around 10 sites offering information on this subject and none of them actually list the full address…even wikipedia only provides the street name. I’m not really interested in whether the poltergeist activity was genuine or not…all I hoped to provide was accurate, verified, info given by the “alleged” Montague Keen through David to Guy Lyon Playfair which could not have been known to David prior to the seance.
With regard to other comments posted I do get the fact that a small number of what appear to be ridiculous and untrue statements have been made, in the main, by David’s control William (particularly the Aspirin debarcle and one or two other questionable matters which I’m sure Paul can recount more readilly than I) so perhaps sometime soon would be a good time for David or William to validate these things from the past?…fingers crossed!
warm regards.
Denzil; putting the name of the mother and the street; very easy to find, into Google, immediately brought up the house number, and on the site referred to a picture of the front of the house; won’t publish it here but it’s obviously no secret. Sorry my friend.
Mike.
I have been watching this discussion with interest with its many different opinions about the medium David Thompson and also physical mediumship in general. Mr Stemmen’s article has unleashed an important debate on what I think is a most important question, the modern preference for the dark seance room. In my many years as a spiritualist I have sat in no more than half a dozen physical sittings so I cannot call myself an expert. Even so, common sense tells me that we have wandered very far from the days when physical mediumship was a breathtaking vehicle for proving survival of the human spirit. That was what materialisation was for. Lord, it was what spiritualism was for! Who could doubt survival when an entire roomful of people could all see a “dead” person walking about greeting their relatives and friends, reminiscing about shared memories? It is the ultimate evidence.
Regardless of whether or not Mr Thompson’s seances produce survival evidence, such evidence can be readily obtained through a competent, well trained clairvoyant or clairaudient. Therefore one has to wonder what the benefits of current physical mediumship really are. Trumpets flying and chairs upturned? These may be thrilling for a first time visitor but what do they actually prove? In my opinion they prove that an unseen force is at work but that is a very different thing from proving individual personal survival.
I know very little about modern technology but I recall reading an article about night vision goggles. If spirit visitors really are materialsing in dark rooms they must be so very disappointed that no one can see them. The old saying that seeing is believing is absolutely true! The thrills of physical phenomena are less than nothing in comparison with seeing a person appear in front of your physical eyes. Why not let sitters use the goggles? Imagine the joy it would bring to people if the spirit loved ones are really there in Mr Thompson’s room!
Hi Hilary
I hope I made that clear in my post that I agree with you that the upturned chair and many other amazing events in both red light and no light are truly amazing. They also in themselves do not prove that uncle Arthur is in the room with you. To my mind if physical is “all” that happens its wonderful and the sitter can be entertained, amazed, intrigued, bewildered and that is their choice to pay and experience it.
Blind people should have the same chance of meeting spirit loved ones as sighted people. Evidence remains evidence even in the dark. Seeing my father in front of me would have of course been icing on the cake but I would have accepted true communication with him in the dark and been able to verify it.
If the spoken word is claimed to be that of any other person famous or a friend or relative of a sitter then any thing other than the real thing , will do. If spirit claim to be someone and it isn’t true then it is fraud. This is where we are all so hung up on. The password on you laptop the pin number for your credit card and the email address with a stop missing just isn’t accepted.
We will always understand that with famous people so much informaton is out there. If “spirit” want to prove survival to us then we are just helping them by telling them they are failing with the present work. Even with well known communicators there are gaping holes that appear without rational explaination.
Prof Gary Schwartz was willing to undertake some serious work over a long period of time as he recognised that David had a gift. He would not put his name to the “gift” until proper testing was done. This would have meant no passports no taking charge of seating no knowledge of sitters etc etc. I too was to be excluded from knowing what the tests would actually be as I could have been seen as an accomllice (something that I had no problem with).
We had in place externally (from the test centre in Arizona) based scientists who would have overseen the proceedings and be available from outside the testing arena to ensure that the tests were valid and reliable.
There was no financial issues to prevent David as this was covered by the university all accommadation, food, flights etc inc sensible renumeration. This was arranged with Prof Schwartz in many meetings, calls and emails. We would have had testing carried out with some substance. It did not matter if David was going to be living in England or Australia.
It is not to say that any one test would not have been seen as controversial and I am sure debate would have taken place but it might have taken some of the issues further.
David declined to do this because his wife Bianca was not keen at the time. What a wasted opportunity. Still now Bianca is no longer part of David’s life and if she was the only reason he would take up a similar offer . Both David and Victor have championed the notion of being tested so why not do so now if there are no historical reports to see.
With fair play in mind for anyne thinkng this is picking on David I mention the Warren Caylor fiasco consisting of” I will be tested anywhere by anone in any conditions” and then blow out on the day because he wanted a friend to sit next to him as was the case with PN’s attempt to test Warren. In that case every effort was made to assure Warren that his welfare was paramount. I was fortunate to have been involved in the testing procedures. PN did not fail that day it stood it’s ground that the medium cannot be involved and claim it is independant at the same time. Again if PN had accepted the testing as credible with conditions changed by Warren then it would have been the laughing stock.
Frank Brown who had been Warren’s most ardent supporter at the time and defended Warren over the testing or non testing called me some considerable time later to talk over the doubts he had at later occasions and was man enough to say he understood where we were coming from.
The mediums want the best of both worlds! So do we. Sorry about that one
warm regards all
When Roy Stemman emailed a copy of his article because his website had crashed and knowing that I had sat with David on the Wednesday after his Monday séance, that he would be really interested in knowing my thoughts either on or off the record I really did not want to be drawn into what has turned out to be an examination of the minutiae of his mediumship. Is David Thompson a genuine physical medium? Of course he is, and instead of getting bogged down in rather trivial arguments I would like to examine the subject from a slightly different point of view. I am sorry it is rather long, but it is a very complex subject
I first met David just before the now defunct Noahs Ark society was deliberately steered onto the rocks by its then president. A member of the Haymist circle told me that they had a young physical medium that had great potential. I sat and was very impressed not only with the mediumship but also his circle and in particular his circle leader Paul Barker. When Stainton Moses said always test the spirit, he could have had Paul in mind. Up to that point I had never met a person so meticulous in making sure everything was absolutely genuine. News of David’s mediumship was spreading and soon came to the attention of the president of the Ark who proceeded to denigrate him through the pages of the Ark Review. There followed a series of exchanges between us culminating with myself been slung out of the Society. In fact I think I have the distinction to be the last person to have his membership terminated before it went belly up. There is a story there for the reasons that lay behind the demise of the Ark, but that is for another day. When Stewart Alexander gave PN an interview, I wrote a letter of appreciation that I think it is worth reiterating in part as it puts very clearly why physical mediumship is so rare.
“I want to thank PN for the very interesting and informative interview with Stewart Alexander. Stewart with typical modesty only touched on the rarity of being a Physical Medium (PM). In my copy of “Materialisations “ by Harry Boddington, Alan Crossley, as president of the then Noah’s Ark Society wrote, “Whilst physical mediumship was widespread during the Victorian era and the early part of this century, it had almost died out prior to the formation of the Noah’s Ark Society. Several factor contributed to this decline; existing and potential physical mediums are extremely rare, and it is possible that only one in a 100,000 people actually have the ability to develop such a mediumship”
Now if that is anything like an accurate figure, and I for one accept that Alan Crossley was a foremost expert in his field, then that means in a population of 60,000,000 there are a potential 600 PM. At first glance that looks like quite a lot, but on closer scrutiny how many of those are Spiritualists or have the awareness of how Spiritual law operates. I suggest there are no more than 40 potential PM
Now out of those 40 individuals, how many have the inclination or time sit for their development. Even if they all did how many circles would continually sit month after month, year after year, with virtually nothing to show for it. Only when you can understand the rarity of this being brought to fruition can you appreciate the truly wonderful gift that Stewart can demonstrate, and that is why physical mediumship is so rare in today’s world. It should of course be nurtured and treasured as the very bedrock of our movement, rather than ridiculed by some sections in Spiritualism as being irrelevant in today’s world”.
So now we have got a physical medium who has sat for many, many years to demonstrate physical phenomena. So what else effects phenomena. Atmospheric conditions, the health and mood of the PM, whether there is love and harmony in the séance room, all this effects the séance and evidence produced. I well remember being told sometimes what the spirit world put in at one end comes out completely different at the other. Of course every physical medium wants to demonstrate in light, whether it be in red light or light brought in by the Spirit world. Ectoplasm is a nasty dangerous material and has to be treated with extreme respect. That is why I was so intrigued by Bill Meadows who uses this so called new energy which I in fact believe is a refinement of ectoplasm with the nasties taken out. But there again that is for another article.
I will now deal directly with the so called anomalies in his mediumship. Any mental medium can only give what they are given, and sometimes even the best can give out wrong information, and the same is true with physical mediumship. It is not willfully done as some seem to think, it is just that they don’t get everything right. Who does?
Over the years that followed, I must have sat with the Haymist circle on at least 5 occasions, before David’s decision to up sticks and move to Australia. I can only imagine what emotion it must have caused the Haymist circle as a whole and Paul Barker, in particular, who had dedicated so much of his life to make David Thompson one of the best known and respected physical mediums demonstrating at the time. But everybody has lessons to learn and that includes David. I was so pleased to be able to sit with him again thanks to Ron Gilkes who made it possible. I totally concur with Denzil’s assessment of how his mediumship has improved. We often correspond and I have a great respect for his knowledge of the subject. I know it is only time before he will be able to demonstrate in red light and I hope I am around to witness it. So with his new circle leader who seems to be having a very good influence, I wish him well in his development, which is a very long and at time hard and thankless task, but when the cherry is finally on the cake it will be worth all the time it has taken to put it there.
What I see here, as an experienced researcher in the syndrome of adult bullying, in the article by Stemman and the comments in agreement, both here and especially on Stemman’s own website where published comments are hand picked by him, is an adult, envy-based, bullying attack and recruitment drive, on someone who has had no opportunity to answer to any of a whole range of things largely founded on complete ignorance or contrived to appeal to ignorance. I doubt that David Thompson would want to spend any time on this however and I certainly wouldn’t wish it on him – I’m sure he has far more positive and constructive things to focus his energies on and involve himself in. He has devoted many years of his life on perfecting his mediumistic gifts which are considerable in my and many others’ opinions as direct experiencers of the results. I have been to his (and other mediums’) seances in UK and in Spain and had evidence provided that would have been totally impossible to acquire from my ID, and also been extremely satisfied and grateful for the incredibly rigorous systems put in place by David and his wife Christine, that in fact leave no room for doubt either during or after the seance, and are put in place for that reason. I have a lifetime’s experience in spiritualism and mediumship. I have also personally spoken to many other people who have been equally satisfied and happy with the seances and the mediumship and evidence. I also note from a friend’s attempt to post a comment about this article by Roy Stemman on Roy Stemman’s website, linked to from here at Spirit of PN, the Stemman-run Paranormal Review, that it is actually impossible for a balanced fair argument of any kind to take place on that very public website of Stemman’s since all comments are moderated and the ones Stemman does not like for any reason are simply not published there. There is nothing whatsoever balanced about the way any arguments are presented there, and to link to that on a public forum for all gives a very distorted picture of the reality regarding David Thompson and public opinion of him. In fact it would seem people are therefore encouraged to hate him and what he does. I do not feel it is a responsible stance for Spirit of PN to link to such a biased website almost as if it is part of Spirit of PN. I don’t feel that Psychic News nor its ‘Spirit’ counterpart would be in favour of such blatant verbal atrocities directed at any medium doing their best, let alone such a good one as David Thompson. I think this extremely negative and hateful bias against one person and the encouragement of it, along with the prevention of all points of view being published, is not a spiritual stance to take and I do hope that Spirit of PN will reconsider publishing links to such places as this. People should be aware of the dynamics of being led in a manipulated attack to cast aspersions on a very good and professional medium and create a witch hunt in a typical ‘bully gathers the mob’ scenario online. It is clear from reading these posts that people do not have all the facts and knowledge of what is or isn’t required at David Thompson’s seances nor why, and how ectoplasm actually works. The ignorance shown about the dangers of touching ectoplasm is clear. This danger with light and grabbing at ectoplasm is what killed Helen Duncan and is not something anyone plays with in order to satisfy bullying mentalities, or demands from an unruly audience craving selfish satisfaction – and not all mediums and techniques are identical and require years of development! This article is based on blatantly contrived *flawed* arguments and the motivation shown is clearly ‘let’s destroy this target’ with a following of haters whipped up online with verbal incitement. I also have to assume this actually amounts to a very public and personal attack on someone which may even amount to libel. The bullying dynamic is obvious to those who have researched this subject in depth and recognise it. Bullying is based on envy and is a psychological dynamic that exists in people who feel bad about themselves but make themselves feel better by destroying, or attempting to destroy, someone. Experts in bullying know that the target is usually extremely talented and gifted, (which riles the bully with envy) but with an achilles heel to pick at. A gifted medium is the most perfect target that any cowardly bully and their followers could wish for as it is so easy to throw fake mud at such a target. However it is incredibly transparent to those who know the syndrome. I would love to see the skeptics and critics even attempt to fake any of the things they so destructively allege are faked. I think most mature people would assert that a wiser, higher, responsibility with regards to this verbal assault is now required on the part of Spirit of PN and what is acceptable or not.
Louisa, thanks for your comment. I’m a passionate believer in the right of every person to express his or her views. All comments submitted to SPN are published, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with their content. Censorship is itself a form of bullying, and as such is abhorrent to me. Spiritualism represents the greatest revelation ever to have reached this world. It has nothing to fear from frank debate and is big enough and strong enough to encompass many strands of opinion. As long as I am in the editor’s chair, Spirit of PN will be big enough and strong enough to accommodate any and all views relating to Spiritualism, its philosophy and its exponents. Sue.
Hi Sue, I’m not in favour of ‘censorship’ as such at all either, but there is a definite line to be drawn between free speech and defamation of character, and the title of the article alone without the ensuing incited posts, begs the question of defamation which publishers whether online or offline legally have to take responsibility for, even if they don’t themselves utter the words.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation)
I would hope that anyone in a responsible publishing position would instinctively ensure that the line between well intentioned debate and malicious defamation resulting in “unlawful attacks on a person’s honour and reputation” is not crossed
Article 17 of the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states
1. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation.
2. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Louisa you make very deliberate and specific statements about the comments made on this site, and allege they constitute defamation, libel, etc., which, with respect, do not constitute a legal opinion regarding what has been discussed on this site or any other regarding this topic.
While I appreciate the sincerity of your opinion and position in this matter, you may perhaps not have realised that your comments may be perceived as representing a greater ‘defamation’ and constitute a more extensive libel of the integrity, honesty, and intention, of those who have posted, as anything which you claim has done so by them.
By all means express your utter disgust at the views expressed. By allo means, argue why you do not agree, and what evidence you have on which you base your opposition, and I am sure that everyone who has posted will acknowledge your right to do so, and will debate, either for or against your position, without any desire to be rude to you. But, please do not impute onto other people, intentions, attitudes or motivations, for which you have no basis, no evidence, and no right.
Hi Louise. I’m confused. You’ve just posted a similar, but shorter, comment on my http://www.ParanormalReview.com under the name Lily. Contrary to your statement, I have not refused to publish a single comment (yours included!). It’s there for all to read. If you are going to make such claims, you really must support them with evidence (and by that I mean more evidence than was produced at the David Thompson seance I attended). So kindly advise me who this friend is and when the are supposed to have sent a comment. Anyone looking at the comments on my site will see that they contain many that disagree with my verdict, and they get as much space as those who share my views.
It is true that I “moderate” the comments, but that just means I correct any typing errors and also remove the odd word that might be construed as libellous. Apart from that, I publish every word.
So, here’s how I have responded to you (under your “other” name) on my website:
“Oh dear, Lily. You seem incapable of telling the difference between objective reporting and what you term “a public tirade” and I’m sure no further words from me are going to open your mind to that. Have you watched Derren Brown? You and I both know that the effects he produces on stage (in the light!) are conjuring tricks. We don’t know how he does it, but that doesn’t mean we have to believe they are paranormally produced.
“For the record, I accept totally that David Thompson could be a genuine physical medium. All that I am saying is that, at the seance I attended all the conditions imposed (particularly total darkness) are what one would expect from someone indulging in trickery rather than the real thing, and the lack of real evidence of spirit communication only served to reinforce that view. And that will remain my attitude to his mediumship until the conditions change, he produces phenomena in red light or something similar, or the evidence communicated is both abundant and impressive so that everything else ceases to be significant.”
One last observation. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but at least I do so under my real name – not under the guise of various pseudonyms. Why don’t you?
Louisa (Lily) – I should also have responded to your reference to Helen Duncan, a medium whose abilities I am very familiar with. I’ve even read some of the letters which she wrote to Maurice Barbanell when she was serving a sentence in Holloway Prison after being found guilty of fraudulent mediumship (falsely, in my opinion). Barbanell was one of her staunchest supporters and a good friend, and rightly so because he and many other leading Spiritualists had witnessed impressive materialisations at her seances. But later, after her release from Holloway, when she resumed giving public seances, Barbanell published a report in “Psychic News” drawing attention to the fact that the quality of her mediumship had declined and was leading to suspicions about its authenticity. He advised her to stop giving seances until her mediumship improved (I don’t think she took that advice). I mention this to illustrate the fact that criticism of public mediumship should not be presumed to be motivated by “envy” (a rather bizarre suggestion) or any other reason. It can just as readily reflect a desire to get the best out of people and also to protect a movement whose reputation is far greater than that of one individual.
To put someone’s – anyone’s – reputation and integrity on the line, and to incite and encourage public hatred and ridicule against someone, simply because YOU feel like it, or *think* something may or may not be true, and is purely your opinion, and not based on ANY facts, is bullying and libelous, whatever excuses you use for doing so, Mr Stemman.
Holy Cow.. This is turning into a regular spiritual bunfight! I havn’t seen such passionate discourses since the time years ago, when the original “Psychic News” decided to include the “New Age Review” as an inclusion into their regular format. How about we all go and have a nice cup of tea and a lie down..?
By deciding to offer himself as a public medium, and charging people to attend his seances, David Thompson puts his own reputation and intregity on the line, and is on record as saying he accepts that people will hold opinions for and against his mediumship and he recognises that this is inevitable given he works in the dark.
It is not the poeople who have commented or the writer of an article of interest to the public who have challeneged Thompson’s integrity at all. They have merely expressed those opinions which Thompson agrees they are entitled to have.
As for the comment that Mr Stemman’s article was published to incite and encourage hatred and ridicule, it is so preposterous that I am embarrassed for ‘Louisa’ for making it. Nor is it libelous as far as I can see, in legal terms, as the article is neither a false statement nor does it misrepresent. It describes the personal experience of a person who attended a Thompson seance and reflects both a positive and a more sceptical viewpoint and does not appear to be malicious in intent at all.
And for those who have made comments about the subject, to suggest that their attitude is based on envy or jealously is quite bizarre. The issue has nothing to do with such emotions at all. It is about wanting to ensure high standards of mediumship and evidence are offered by mediums who place themselves in the public spotlight for personal financial gain. It is wanting to see physical mediumship, by whomever it is carried out, done in a manner that does not give rise to controversy.
It is clear that some find David Thompson’s mediumship highly credible and others have still questions and doubts. That is neither ridiculing or accusing him, it is simply a fact. And, there are aspects of David Thompson’s mediumship that do not seem to provide strong evidence for survival, while other aspects may, and there should be no assumption of harm intended when people raise comments about that. If David Thompson is a genuine physical medium capable of producing strong evidence for survival then let him get on with doing it in sufficient light for people to be left in do doubt about it.
I tend to agree with Liz that if a medium puts themself out there and charges a lot of money for their work then they must expect that if sitters are not completely satisfied they have a right to question. No different from any other professional. Charge for your services and people have a right to discuss the standard of your work. It may be great or it may be poor. People are still entitled to talk about it.
I am fascinated by the claims of bullying, public hatred and ridicule. This seems so much at odds with the discussions on here where there are questions raised which are based upon factual issues. If there are factually based queries about Mr Thompson and his Mediumship are you suggesting these should not be aired because to do so is bullyong and inciting hatred. That is imputing a purpose to this discussion which I doubt other participant would agree with.
Jim.
My observation is thus, this is an old ploy being used here to muddy the waters and divert the attention of the issue concerned. In my opinion David Thompson has acted out- side of any healing code of conduct and his advice and spurious diagnosis to say the least must cease before harm comes to one of his recipients. As to his demonstrations I would advise anyone who is considering to go to one to do so for the experience and may be they will be a bit wiser for it. I will add until PM is show in light it will stagnate. The medium Arnold Clare who took over from Jack Webber in the Group run by Harry Edwards used a luminous board 24inches by 14 inches and it could light up the whole room and I use similar board in our own groups and it cannot harm a medium or any-one else for that matter. Exponents of PM today try to use a board that is 4inches square which is pathetic.
What needs to be borne in mind by people who come to websites like this, and it should be borne in mind with anyone who has a s*h*r*e*d of conscience and intelligence, is that someone with less than healthy psychological motivations who hates the person being discussed, can post all manner of totally UNverifiable lies, portraying them as if they were real valid experiences or facts, either under their own ID or using different IDs, with FULL ANONYMITY, in order to get at and attempt to destroy someone.
It is far from an even playing field and people need to bear in mind this kind of thing happens to people frequently, specially those in the public eye. It can be very damaging, and that is the intent behind it.
There are certainly no checks on who is posting and saying what on websites like these and certainly no checks whatsoever on the authenticity of the information put across in throwaway remarks.
The irony cannot be missed when the whole subject matter is on verifiable evidence itself. It is well known amongst those that have researched the bullying syndrome, that websites like these, ie forums, are a gift to bullies.
What concerns me is that as it was totally dark how could anyone determine if the alleged spirit form was wearing anything on its feet other than the fact that the person being stood on (Roy Stemman) thought they could feel the impression of a trainer like tread through their socks.
Hi Freddie
Thank you for those kind words. It is difficult to be meticulous and not be concerned with the minutiae at the same time.
Hi Louise
I looked up the link to defamation of character, it does say usually the claim has to be false and also not in the public interest. I think the fact that these are peoples experiences, and each individual has to stand by what they have written, whether you were present or not, and the fact that it is in the public’s interest as can clearly be seen on the various forums deals with this.
David could always make his own comment if he wishes. I don’t believe this would be a waste of his energies. I am sure spirit will give him the strength to do their work.
As far as bullying is concerned, I for one am grateful for the explanation because I didn’t know what it meant. I thought bullying was referring to someone’s size,colour sexuality, class, large nose or small feet, not asking a simple question on his mediumship for which he charges people money.
Can I ask you your opinion of the Aspirin debate?
Can I ask how you feel about the baby dematerialising and leaving the earth plane and then thanks to the Zerdin Fellowship we discover the new plane called spirit dimension all wrapped up in what we used to call the cabinet? I am going to assume for one minute that this is all true. How do the moral issues of this then stack up?
Can I ask you about the testing, and in your opinion, if he should be or not? None of these were covered in your post
No one is threatening anyone, no one is going to be beaten up or jailed. Many of us have sat with David and if harm had been our intention then this is what would have occured years ago. People have put themselves on the line for David and others. Many have opened their doors and hearts to promote and encourage true mediumship and support mediums in many ways, David included. Why would the truth hurt so much?
warm regards
I have not seen any cases of what I would call bullying on this thread at all; all I see is a healthy discussion on David’s Mediumship by what I believe to be virtually all Spiritualist posters.
We are always told by Spirit to question, and reject that which we cannot believe is true.
If anyone who is doing Spiritual healing advises any medicine then that is strictly against the rules. The only medical advice that should be given is ‘Go and see your GP’, I find that acceptable and indeed that advice could come from Spirit itself.
Surely the whole point of this blog/forum is to discuss Spiritualist matters, as was it’s predecessor Psychic News, and although some may disagree with the views of others on here, they all have a right to express their views.
Susan as Moderator has the right to remove anything that could be construed as downright libellous but I have not seen any of my posts on here (or indeed my input to PN when it existed) altered by a single word. Long live healthy debate.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/index.htm “Bullying is the common denominator of harassment, discrimination, prejudice, abuse, persecution, conflict and violence. When the bullying has a focus (eg race or gender) it is expressed as racial prejudice or harassment, or sexual discrimination and harassment, and so on. Although bullying often lacks a focus, bullies are deeply prejudiced but at the same time sufficiently devious to not reveal their prejudices to the extent that they contravene laws on harassment and discrimination. I believe bullying is the single most important social issue of today, for the study of bullying provides an opportunity to understand the behaviours which underlie almost all conflict and violence. Most of the information on this site is derived from experience of dealing with bullying in the workplace, however, much applies to bullying in schools, in relationships (eg domestic violence and family bullying), in uniform (armed services, police, prisons etc), in crime, with neighbours, and in abuse of the elderly.”
“Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg promotion) for the bully.”
Tim Field, 1999
Hi Louisa,
Thanks for Tim Fields 1999 opinion. I take it you did not want to comment on mine or any other posts with questions and viewpoints in them.
I am interested in the part where it mentions denial of responsibility. I think Jock spoke of this when questioning healers responsibility.
deception and evasion of accountability yes this is being discussed as well.
My name is Paul Barker I don’t want to change it and will never write as anyone else so I am not sure where I am hiding my name there.
warm regards
I notice there has been considerable discussion concerning the ethics of Spiritual Healing practice in David Thompson’s case, re the advising of aspirin from his Guide, and also concerning the negative outcome of several of his healing treatments etc. To my knowledge, this places David in a highly dubious legal position, even if certain erroneous ‘advice’ comes from a deceased spirit being via an entranced medium. In my country (Australia) the Law most certainly would not accept as valid, any such medical advice from a so called ‘dead’ person, regardless of how valid or incorrect it may be. As a ‘full time’ Spiritual Healer who has worked with the public (not the Spiritualist Churches) for more than forty years now, I have always had to maintain strict legal guidelines in my work as a healer and medium, and I have always worked in full co-operation with the medical profession. This had led to my work as a healer being respected and recognized in a good way. These guidelines are mostly just common sense, and are not difficult to follow. In David’s case (via “William” etc) any such advice comes under the description of “prescribing” when he is not a registered medical practitioner. Also, making any form of “making claims to cure” (especially in cases of cancer, and certain other chronic diseases) also places anyone in a highly dubious position, from a legal point of view. In both of these examples in my country, people have been prosecuted in the past, with the subsequent “fallout” impacting severely upon their work. I know it is a difficult situation where such information or statements come via an entranced medium, but to my knowledge, the Law does not differentiate, and will acknowledge such information as being given by the person in question, in this case the medium etc.
It would be a shame to see David’s work and reputation placed in this position. Other guidelines pertain to the medical management of children, and the matter of diagnosis, if you are not a registered medical professional. An attuned Spiritual Healer will gain many wonderful (and at times, amazing results) and still be able to work within legal guidelines. In my opinion (and it is just my opinion..not advice) it would certainly be in David’s best interests (and also for those who manage his affairs etc) to have a review of such matters where his mediumship is concerned, to obviate any future serious problems of a legal nature that could totally destroy his credibility. (It only takes one person with a grudge, to unleash a can of legal worms that can totally destroy all the good work previously that may have been done.) I cannot vouch for his mediumship, as I have never met the man, or experienced first-hand his mediumistic gifts. However, if he is genuine, then it would be a serious loss to our wonderful philosophy (and humankind) if his wonderful physical mediumship was to suffer irreparably due to any messy legal situations in the future.
HI
I have sat with David in Banbury. I did not introduce myself to him as I think that if spirit wish to bring evidence they should do so without the medium knowing who you are. At that time on a forum I was joking with David about Houdini, saying if it was Houdini I would eat my hat. There was another man there from the forum who introduced himself to David before the seance began. When the seance began William told the other man he was going to make him eat his hat even though it was not him who had made this comment. Is this because he introduced himself to David beforehand and I didn’t? In other words wouldn’t you have thought spirit would have known it was me and not him? After that William walked into me and it made me jump. I thought even though the room was dark spirit could see where you were.
I asked William a question: “Why do you not get detailed evidence at physical seances like you did years ago?” His answer was: “We gave a girl some good evidence the other day.” I was called stupid for asking such a question by other sitters in the room and also Timmy was very rude in his manner to me. So if they are our guides I would rather be without. I thought that spirit would embrace the question and answer in a way in which we would all understand and leave us feeling more knowledgeable about the subject.
A girl received messages from a loved one which at the time seemed quite good, except when her father said “How is your sister\brother,” which seemed odd to me. Wouldn’t he know his daughter’s name?
Another lady whose husband came said he is around her all the time. So she said: “Have you seen Colin?” (I think that was his name). So the spirit went quiet. “Who’s Colin?” The sitter said his been living with them for two years. I thought the spirit would have known that, seeing as he said he had been around her all the time.
Another lady who sat next to me had a loved one come and she had no idea if it was her dad or not. She seemed quite dismissive of the spirit, who didn’t stay long.
So I left with more doubt than ever whether the spirit world existed, instead of feeling uplifted by the night I was left with the opposite feeling.
I found out the next day that the evidence given to one of the ladies David knew her and her dad, who was the spirit communicator but he did not know her sister’ brothers name and the other lady’s husband had been through before, wearing a wedding ring on his hand which in life he never wore, though David did. So all in all David flew 9,499 miles so the spirit team that works with him could give messages to people he knew.
After reading the posts on here I have just spoken to a man who was in the room when David was giving trance healing to a lady who had cancer. Before David went into Trance he told the lady in his opinion she should tie string around the cancer to stop it spreading, and then when the guide came he said the same and worked on her and said that all was well. The lady died two weeks later, bless her. David charged £50 for this service. Hearing this sickens me.
This discussion is getting ridiculous, and very libelous. I wasn’t going to contribute any more, but now it’s gone way beyond the reasonable. I don’t believe half the stuff written here, certainly not that David out of trance would tell someone to tie string round cancer to stop it spreading. An impossibility, quite absurd.
As to my message from my partner at the seance on the Monday, I took the 28 years mentioned to mean the number of years we were together. My partner never said this, nor to my recollection affirmed it. We were together 21 years. As explained in a comment to my original blog on the seance and also in an unpublished comment to Roy Semmen’s blog, it referred to the years the Berlin Wall stood separating friends, families and loved ones,. The seance was held just after the weekend which marked the 50th anniversary of the Wall being built. It was a bone of contention between myself and my partner, since he was against it and I believe it was necessary, and still do I might add, though not mining the border or shooting people trying to cross it.
The point is, however, that George, my partner, was fond of symbolism in films, plays, etc. and would be keen for me to work out cryptic messages like this for myself. In fact I was prompted by a dream about the Berlin Wall exactly a week after the seance. It symbolized the barrier between this world and the next, also separating loved ones. In a message after the seance George referred to ‘openings and rifts’, and in October 1989 there were many of these in the Berlin Wall which finally collapsed, and in the seance and also in clairvoyance sessions all over the country we also witness ‘openings and rifts’ in the barriers between this world and the next, indeed I break through this barrier quite regularly here at home.
Also, as regards ‘Sandy’ the name of the dog given to me at the seance, this would be relatively easy to find in my lenghty biography if you did a search for the word but very difficult if you didn’t already know the name. However other names, including that of my partner George, appear much more frequently. Had anyone looked at the biography to get names they would certainly have found George’s – his name wasn’t mentioned at the seance, he was just intruduced as ‘my partner’. Other friends were not mentioned either, only this friend’s dog, which was quite an obscure name only mentioned in one section of the biography. Highly unlikely anybody would chance upon this and use it as fake evidence of survival. I have no idea why Roy didn’t publish my comment, but I now find this whole discussion very tedious and it has now moved from the sublime to the ridiculous. Had David or William said half the things they are supposed to have said they would have been sued by now. I would unsubscribe from this if I knew how. But I keep getting the comments in my mailbox and can’t seem to stop them. If anyone can, please do so.
Yes I didn’t believe it at first so I contacted the people who was there. I wouldn’t comment on this without making 100% sure that he said this. In the room was the lady who had cancer her son and the man who arranged the healing.They have no axe to grind as far as I know so as ridiculous as you may think it sounds it did happen whether you believe it or not.
Hi Tony,
The saddest part is that, however extreme you may think some of the comments, they are actually evidential, I have heard them before and know that they could be corroborated,
However they still do not prove that what is going on in the seances is not as claimed but they do raise valid questions. Surely it is better that these are dealt with than be suppressed because they will just resurface again at a future date. Of course the appearance of light in the seance or validation by the type of research once proposed by Prof Garry Schwarz could well finish all possible debate about this matter.
However, if the public seances continue on in the dark with no variation to the existing sequence of events then these questions will just keep coming back.. The careful vetting of all applications, from people wanting to attend seances, which is already employed by David, makes a critical review less likely but not impossible.
I am also uncertain that an environment where all non supportive comments are surpressed is healthy for any movement. Indeed such an approach would have been frowned upon by our pioneers.
Simply to hear any comment anywhere does not mean it is true, and one of the main tactics of a bullying personality, unfortunately, is the use of malicious gossip-mongering ie LIES. Research bullying and anyone who has been targeted in this way and you will discover that one of the main weapons used is often lies fabricated deliberately to destroy a reputation. This happens in all walks of life and anywhere that there are people, you will find it – it is not confined just to spiritualist circles, although I am saddened to find it here. The fact is that people here are all hiding behind anonymous IDs, their sources are NOT verifiable whatsoever in terms of anything they say being true, and this appears to be a playgroud for a ‘free for all’ mobbing here, the likes of which I am extremely disappointed to find in any way associated with what I had hoped to be a place revolving around serious spiritualism. This is no better at all than the average internet forum or bulletin board with contributions from totally unidentifiable sources, inhabited by people who have no interest whatsoever in any idea of ultimate truth or fair playwith the same mentality and same type of ‘rules’ as that of those that construed the witches’ ducking-stool – ie guilty if you didn’t drown and innocent if you did. Nothing said on this forum is valid, nothing is verifiable. This is full of ‘I heard this from such and such’ and the typical rumour-mongering tools of the bullying trade are rampant here. The only reason I discovered this website and forum in the first place is because I was interested to see where my testimonial of my personal experience at a David Thompson seance was going to appear via a third party connected with the editor here and I must say I am extremely disappointed as one who used to read and subscribe to PN to find this place and what it contains, even exists now.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/index.htm
“Only the best are bullied”
“Those who can, do. Those who can’t, bully.”
With respect Tony, when you say you “don’t believe half the stuff written here, certainly not that David out of trance would tell someone to tie string round cancer to stop it spreading. An impossibility, quite absurd” I understand that you are having difficulty accepting what has been written.
The reality is that every one of the comments, about the Aspirin/Aids issue, the healing issues, including the suggestion to tie up the cancer to stop it spreading, and the other remarks, are actually factually true. They are not made up statements, they are not lies, they are not fabrications designed to denigrate or undermine David Thompson. They are simply facts. Events that have occurred and which do not sit comfortably in many people’s minds.
I appreciate that for you these comments seem critical, but if something is the truth, people must have the right to express that truth, even if it is disturbing to some who feel differently about a person or their mediumship.
Hi All,
I read Victor Zammit’s site and was intrigued by his sense of fair play. After Roy Stenman being slated for his opinion as a first time sitter Dr. Fiona Bowie was praised for her integrity although as she wrote in her report this was her first sitting. I believe they were at the same sitting. I have nothing against Dr. Bowie at all but she is deemed ,as an academic, to have the credibility of observation not afforded to Roy Stenman.
I did not realise that as an observer, as Dr. Bowie was in this case, as opposed to a scientific researcher, that academic qualifications are required to note evidence. I passed my cylcle proficiency test when I was ten. This was my first taste of my academic future. I knew my father’s name a long time before the age of ten.
Please note, this is in no way any insult to Dr. Bowie I am sure she has the highest of morals and is a woman of integrity. Had her foot been trod on who knows what would have happened?
My point is to highlight the using of selected material and selected reports. On this forum both the for and agaisnt have been expressed and posted. On Victor’s site I do not see the other side in the way of challenging spirit to move David’s mediumship on.
To keep my own positioned balanced I also read Robin Foy’s report of the first sceance in Spain. All the procedures and safety measure were in place as one would expect. David being moved out of the cabinet whilst still in the chair is an awesome display of power. I am a large man but I could not have lifted David strapped into a chair and moved him in the dark whilst sitting in my own chair holding on to the complete stranger ( or at least first time sitter) who always sat next to me in a sceance with both hands. All this would have happened within seconds. A physical impossibility without some serious kit I still maintain. In one of Colin Fry’s sceance he was moved nearer 25′ and outside two rows of chairs in a tight circle. This is not meant as one upmanship but merely to admire some amazing feats of physical mediumship.
The personal information is for the recipients to express their view of course.
warm regards
A Festival of Physical Mediumship at Acacia Centre
This week the Acacia Centre in the Murcia region of Spain held its first International Festival of Physical Mediumship and what a great week it has been – full of laughter, friendliness and phenomena – as well as fascinating ‘educational’ sessions on trance, physical and mental mediumship.
People came from across the world, some staying all week, others just 2 days – Circle members came in support, from Australia and England; and there were participants from Brazil, Portugal, Florida and Los Angeles; from Norway and Sweden, Switzerland, UK and all over Spain – truly International and with one purpose to touch the Spirit and join the two worlds together. Some were experienced but most were first time sitters.
Firstly, our most profound thanks must go to Robert and Barbara McLernon, whose centre it is, for all the extremely hard work they have put into preparing for this week.
Just under 2 years ago the whole garden and purpose built séance room were under 2 feet of water as storm water poured down from the adjacent higher orange and lemon groves.
When the water drained away the whole garden and building were coated in stinking mud.
Determined to have not only the building restored but as much of the garden as possible these last few weeks they personally have been reconstructing the inspirational labyrinth and shovelling 13 tons of granite chippings over the old mud coated chippings so the garden was a pleasant place to walk and sit in.
The séance room, thanks to the expertise of a member of their home circle, was completely lined with wood and new doors and entrance added to make it totally light proof. An efficient quiet air conditioning unit was the finishing touch for comfort in the 30+ degree weather.
The swimming pool beside the separate teaching room was sparkling and available for use but most of us just sat with our feet in it to cool down during lunch and tea breaks.
The week started on Sunday afternoon with David and Christine talking about trance and his development. This was followed in the evening session by David being entranced and his guide William answering questions from the audience – some very good answers too.
I noticed particularly when David speaks naturally he has the Londoners’ ‘f’ instead of ‘th’ – like Billy Cotton’s ‘forty fousand feathers on a frush’ – for those old enough to remember it. When William spoke this aberration was absent.
He explained to us that ectoplasm was used to coat David’s vocal cords so that he could speak in his voice but because the ectoplasm was still within the body the light of the room was not affecting its production. A most enjoyable evening with lots of humour.
Monday afternoon saw two speakers relating occurrences in two very different circles. I told them of the development, with photographs, of the ectoplasmic mediumship of Minnie Harrison and it felt at times as though it was Tom telling the stories, – and just as he used to do I also ran out of time. After a short break Robin Foy connected his laptop to the projector and told everyone of the very different energy based phenomena they had in the Scole Circle.
It was a good foundation and probably ‘mind-boggling’ for many who were attending a physical mediumship event for the first time and had never sat in a physical circle before – as they were about to do. The excitement and energy were building and people were bonding together.
At 7pm we all gathered in the teaching room in preparation for the séance. David spoke to us for quite a time before Christine took over to give us instructions as to what was expected of us.
To sing along enthusiastically – even if you don’t know the words –‘lah lah’ it and particularly the second one which is an Irish jig – an audition for River Dance but with the mouth, not hands and feet – no clapping.
To join hands with the person next to you whenever she told us to – which was whenever any phenomena was about to happen and keep hold until it had finished.
Mind you we were so close together our shoulders were touching the people either side of us so you knew that they hadn’t moved out of their seats but by holding hands no-one could grab or swipe at anything that came near, as had happened once, we were told, when a trumpet had come very close to someone’s face and David suffered burns as the ectoplasm retreated rapidly.
To keep as still as possible and feet in close to your chair which is normal in other circles I’ve sat in.
David selected the 2 independent checkers, one man and one woman, who were previously unknown to him (and in fact on both evenings I sat the 2 men had not even been at any of the talks but only arrived for the séance that particular evening).
Their job was to:
1. check the séance room, cabinet and chair and its bindings that secure David’s arms and legs, the length of material that is used as a gag, the ‘trumpet’ and its bag, the luminous plaque, drumsticks, harmonica, and horn.
2. Do a body check on him Christine and the two other circle members who had travelled to be there.
3. Select and check the strength of the cable ties which were to be used to secure the fastenings on the bindings and the gag and the smaller ones which secure the buttonholes of the cardigan once David has buttoned himself into it with the buttons down the front.
Having removed belts and all jewellery, or taped over rings that could not be removed, to reduce any adverse interaction of the energy/ectoplasm with metals, we were all given a body check to make sure we were carrying nothing into the room.
We were taken across in groups to the porch entrance to the séance room where we removed our shoes before stepping inside on to the cool tiled floor where David ran a metal detecting wand over each of us before directing us to a seat. Where two people wanted to sit next to each other this was allowed. There were around 12 chairs down each of three sides of the room and 2 to3 each side of the cabinet but a few feet away. Once we were all in place the independent checkers carried out the checks on David and the circle members. The cardigan was secured and its ties checked.
David was fastened into the chair and each fastening over bound with a cable tie then Christine gagged his mouth tightly and a cable tie was closed over the knot at the back of his neck. Finally the curtains are dropped over the front of the cabinet
This done the checkers took their places, one either side of the cabinet, the man next to Christine at the left of the cabinet (as we look at it) and the woman next to Sarah, the circle member who was controlling the music player, on the right. The other visiting circle member sat amongst the rest of the sitters.
Now all was ready, the stand lamp by which the room had been lit was unplugged and placed outside the door so too was the torch by which the binds had been checked in the cabinet. Robert then locked the door and sealed the blackout so the only light in the room was from the small luminous tabs on the CD player to enable Sarah to find the buttons.
On the Monday evening after we had started it was noticed there was a very faint glow from the covered display panel of the air conditioning but William said it would not cause a problem and on the Wednesday more tape had solved that problem.
The key was handed to Christine to give to the male checker sitting beside her on the opposite side of the cabinet from the door. If the door, the only opening into that room, had been opened daylight would have streamed in, so of necessity it had to be locked.
After an opening prayer Christine called for the music and we sang, hummed, lahlahed – whatever with gusto to ‘Search for the hero inside yourself’, dodiddo’d to the Irish jig, joined in the bits we knew in ‘True colours’ and ‘Somewhere over the rainbow’. A great feeling of joy and laughter filled the room, at last we were there and we were ready.
We heard a cultured voice speaking and Christine called for us to join hands which we did.
It was William welcoming us all and after speaking for a while he called for questions and when someone asked a question he would ask if he could approach them, walk over to them and stand in front of them then ask if he could touch them and a large hand would be placed on their head – once or twice the person thought it was two hands it was so large. Occasionally a cheek was stroked too. (David’s hands are quite small.)
When he returned to the cabinet we were permitted to release hands, which was a relief as they were getting very sweaty. But in no time Timmy, the young boy, called for the trumpet which Christine placed in front of the cabinet and having joined hands again we were treated to an amazing light display from the luminous band on the large end as the trumpet was manipulated rapidly from one side of the room to the other. Looping and swirling, faster and further than I have witnessed before banging on the top of the cabinet and striking the blades of the overhead fan (stationary) and the ceiling. It came close to knees and heads, sometimes pausing to prod someone in the chest before it was away again – great fun, causing lots of laughter and again raising the vibrations to a new high. Then the trumpet was finished with and it was returned to Christine to be put back into its bag to hide the luminous band.
Timmy also went around the circle touching people and trying to separate their hands, prising apart fingers so they could feel his tiny fingers. Robert described them as being as small as his 5-year-old granddaughter’s fingers and there was certainly no one as small as that in the room that night.
On the Wednesday night we were told that there was more energy than Monday and so they could show his fingers against a luminous plaque. This was carried around the circle so everyone could see tiny slim fingers silhouetted against the top edge of the bright plaque. For the sceptics – if those marks had been on the plaque when it was examined they would surely have been seen by the independent checkers.
But back to Monday. It was now time for personal contacts and to my delight Timmy asked if there was an ‘Ann’. I replied there was and he told me he had two very important people coming for me and one of them was a very big indian so he couldn’t say no because he was frightened of him.
But first there was another man… I was being told to encourage him to give the vibration for him to be able to draw close and I am familiar with that because of all the years I have sat with Stewart Alexander.
Faintly, I heard a familiar ‘Ann…’ and I called to him so he had my vibration and direction. I heard him walking haltingly towards me, my lovely Tom – just 10 months since he passed over. I believe he found it difficult because of the emotion of being together again as he said to me ‘I always was sensitive.’ – he did easily become emotional especially in ‘Ghost’. He said he had been beside me during the talk. Then, having placed his hands on either side of my head, he kissed me on the forehead.
He released me and walked across the room to speak to Robin and Robert who were sitting directly opposite me. As he went his voice became stronger and more like his own normal voice, so much so that one lady from Switzerland who has watched his video about 5 times said was definitely recognisable as Tom Harrison and this was backed up by Barbara, whom with Robert we have known since 2002 so they know Tom well.
Tom returned to the cabinet and we heard the gurgling sound made as the ectoplasm dematerialises and reforms almost instantly I heard heavy footsteps coming to towards me and felt in front of me a tall pillar of cold energy and from above my head came Sunrise’s special greeting to me. He then went on to say something else but until I can listen to the recording I shall not know what, as by now I was too overcome. It was just too wonderful – to have this special privilege of having my love and our special friend there in front of me. He made his way back to the cabinet and dematerialised.
Timmy then asked for Lynne or Linda There was only a Lynne sitting directly opposite the cabinet. Her father wished to come and speak to her.
This is her report:
This was my first experience of sitting in this type of séance. I had been well versed as to what could happen and was looking forward to it.
The checking of the people taking part was thorough as was that of the tie restraints, the clothing, and the chair of our medium David Thompson.
The evening was full of the most amazing spiritual characters. They spoke in varying different voices with intelligence but also with a strong sense of humour.
My own father came through, he reminded me of a rabbit I had when I was young and I instantly remembered it. His voice was like I remembered it, firm but gentle although at first it was a little rasping. He told me that I was his “special little girl” which is what he used to call me when I was very young. He told me that he loved me and was proud of me. He cradled my face in both hands and kissed me on my forehead. I was talking back to him all the time calling him Dad like I used to.
It was without doubt a life changing moment, being made more memorable as my father and I had very little time together when he was alive.
The whole experience was one of total love and energy from every person and spirit present. I will never forget it.
Lynne Jones 24/08/2011
A wonderful harmonious night.
In the Wednesday séance two more ladies had personal encounters. The first had her grandfather and spirit guide build together and both stand in front of her at the same time to speak to her. This was a ‘first’ for the Circle of the Silver Cord.
The second lady had her father come to her and when she couldn’t remember a particular incident he told her that she always was scatterbrained, which she freely admitted.
This is part of what she wrote to me:
I was so excited when Tim, who encourages and helps spirits to come through, called my name out saying there was someone for me who seemed to be my father! Before I knew it, I heard my father’s voice about a foot in front of my face, talking to me from ‘thin air’. It was my father’s voice, unmistakeably. It actually sounded just like him! I knew he found it hard to come through and use the ectoplasm which I gather is hard for most people to use for the first time coming from the spirit world, but I kept encouraging him and he did a wonderful job of talking to me – his voice getting stronger and not only that but his character came through so well that he even managed to push one of my ‘buttons’ like he did on this side years ago! He talked to me about three evidential things.. one was something way back in my childhood that I eventually remembered though I had wished at the time that he’d asked me something more recent, then he spoke to me about his mother regarding something that was a major hallmark of his whole life and supplied one of the most important missing pieces of a jigsaw for me (too long and personal to describe here) which was also something that I could verify later, independently, and then he told me how much he liked the paintings I’d been creating, also incredibly evidential, because for the week before the séance, in every spare moment I’d had over that previous week, I’d been creating some artwork and it was something I hadn’t done in several years now.. so it was very evidential all round. In fact not to put too fine a point on it, it blew my mind, and along with saying I missed him, and him saying he missed me, I was even more gobsmacked when I felt his two hands take hold of my head and plant an emphatic, real kiss on my forehead with his lips, that the whole séance room must have heard! After that the energy went and he left, to the sound of gurgling ectoplasm which is a hallmark sound of physical séances, leaving me absolutely amazed to have been able to have a one to one talk with my ‘departed’ father. It’s an experience that left me with such certainty about the spirit world and life ongoing there, it was fantastic, specially as I’d not had the opportunity to be around this kind of thing for a very long time. I feel very lucky indeed to have been able to have this experience. I feel truly exhilarated. Almost like having been on the most incredibly ‘holiday’ to another planet – (Louisa Livingstone)
On both of the evenings that I sat Quentin Crisp also came and entertained us with his smooth repartee and walking over to Robert McLernon on the Monday night, told him he had a transvestite friend with him who wanted to speak to Rob. It was, to Rob’s great delight, his guide ‘George’ – a flamboyant transvestite, who asked that he now be called ‘Georgina’. Rob declared it: ‘Brilliant’ – so infrequently does a trance medium have the chance to physically speak to their own guides. Then on the Wednesday evening some long-stemmed roses had been brought by Bill, the other Silver Cord Circle member (whose hand I had the pleasure of holding for most of that evening) to be given to ladies in the séance. Quentin took one from the vase between Christine and the cabinet and gave it to a lady directly opposite the cabinet and a second rose was placed in the lap of Barbara, our hostess for the week.
Again on both the Monday and Wednesday evenings, the séances closed with the medium and his chair being levitated out of the cabinet and across the room to land some 3 metres in front of the cabinet. It landed with such a crash I thought some of the new tiles might have cracked. On the second occasion they brought David out of trance before they did it. We heard David say from within the cabinet, “I hate it when they do this.” We heard a small thud, which I suspect was David’s head against the cabinet top, before there was a loud crash and a scraping noise and David told us the chair was still moving.
The séance was now closed and the door unlocked for Robert to retrieve the light. Once we had illumination the independent checkers were called to inspect the binds; to note that the cable ties were still in place, over the knot of the gag, the buckles of the arm straps and securing David’s legs to the chair legs. The cardigan was now on back to front with all the ties still in place. The wire cutters which had been in the pocket of the male checker throughout the séance were now swiftly used to cut the ties so that the buckles could be undone and the cardigan removed.
On the Wednesday, of course, the gag was removed from David’s mouth before they brought him out of trance and William asked for this to be done at the time. Christine crossed the room with the key from the checker so that Rob could unlock the door to get the torch. The two checkers stood at the cabinet with the torch, watching as Christine eased the gag from between his lips and left it around his neck. They then returned to their seats, the torch was put outside and the door relocked before David was brought out of trance.
David was still in a very sensitive state, having been more than one and a half hours in trance, and noise was kept to a minimum until he had left the room for a welcome cup of tea. Then you can imagine the chatter that erupted in the room at the wonderful contact we had all had.
The two talks during the day on Wednesday by David and Christine about the Circle of the Silver Cord were entertaining and highly informative with David making use of the available projector to show us various pictures including those of apports and pictures taken of the ectoplasm in the circle.
Thursday saw a day of relaxing, sunbathing and exploring until the evening when David and Christine demonstrated their mental communication skills and a number of very detailed links were given, constrained a little in their flow by the recipients language difficulties.
And, of course, Tom finding he has a good link with Christine, having already made himself known to her in Australia, decided to close the evening by giving her lots of snippets about himself of which she could know nothing – even to the rum we used to put in our hot chocolate every morning, finishing the evening on laughter.
It was a good, if emotional, evening.
Friday started early (too early for me as I overslept) with a session by Christine on mental mediumship and a chance for a few to receive help with their development. One of the centre’s members was ‘persuaded’ to have a go and gave an excellent message whilst being unable to see or hear the recipient.
That evening in the séance having earlier asked a question of William about language in the spirit world her grandfather built and spoke to her in German, her first language.
This is what she wrote to me:
“With the help of another Spirit helper “Jack” my Granddad managed to speak to me in German… He said “mein Liebling” various times which means “my darling” and “das ist wunderbar” which means “this is wonderful” – unfortunately his voice was very quiet and I couldn’t get it all but Spirit Jack took over after my Granddad couldn’t stay any longer and said to me, “Your Grandfather says he is your Geistfuehrer, whatever a Geistfuehrer is, do I know what a Geistfuehrer is,” and he walked away from me mumbling about the word Geistfuehrer….. I then explained that Geistfuehrer simply means “guide” in English…. Later the lady who sat next to me confirmed that she understood German and it was audible to her as well….
(Katja Symons)
As many have said, with the checks that were in place, that no-one could move without others knowing – we had spirit there in that place and individuals had specific evidence that no one could have known.
The week was alive with love and we can only thank Robin and Sandra Foy for the input they have had in the organization, together with Robert and Barbara for opening their centre to the world, coping with sensitive people, and achieving a dream not only for themselves but for so many to come together from across the world.
Thank you and we look forward to the next
Ann Harrison
Anne, thanks for putting your report here. Really glad to hear you got proof from your husband. He was a legend. I do worry about the German part tho. The words are so basic that they apply to anyone. Anyone who learned German for three or four lessons would know them. I wish the German grandfather could have given a personal memory or something. Anyway I hope the words helped the lady.
Just to put the record straight Ann, my report was slightly misinterpreted. You said “The second lady had her father come to her and when she couldn’t remember a particular incident he told her that she always was scatterbrained, which she freely admitted.” In fact I never admitted that at all, but it was evidential simply in the way that my father used to come out with the most outrageous and inappropriate put-downs which did lead to a lot of friction during our relationship. I remember saying to Lyn who was also present at the Festival of Physical Mediumship, that my father was still able to push my buttons from the other side” because of this specific incident. Just wanted to put the record straight! It was all very evidential in more ways that one! Thanks for your report, apart from that it’s very accurate. Love, Louisa xx
Thank you, Louisa, for correcting this. I obviously misunderstood that part about your response. I am so pleased that you had a good evidential contact
Ann
‘Louisa’ has said: “The fact is that people here are all hiding behind anonymous IDs, their sources are NOT verifiable whatsoever in terms of anything they say being true, and this appears to be a playgroud for a ‘free for all’ mobbing here, the likes of which I am extremely disappointed to find in any way associated with what I had hoped to be a place revolving around serious spiritualism. This is no better at all than the average internet forum or bulletin board with contributions from totally unidentifiable sources, inhabited by people who have no interest whatsoever in any idea of ultimate truth or fair playwith the same mentality and same type of ‘rules’ as that of those that construed the witches’ ducking-stool – ie guilty if you didn’t drown and innocent if you did. Nothing said on this forum is valid, nothing is verifiable. This is full of ‘I heard this from such and such’ and the typical rumour-mongering tools of the bullying trade are rampant here.”
As a person who is well known as someone who will always try to put myself in the other person’s shoes and see their viewpoint and perspective from their position rather than just my own, I have tried hard to respect ‘Louisa’s views though they are so different from my own.
However, what is quoted above, is utterly false, utterly offensive, and objectionable.
No one on this forum is hiding behind false names, unless Louisa is, as all names given are for actual people who are not afraid to own who they are or what they say. No one is hiding behind false ID, again, unless ‘Louisa’ is, and every statement regarding issues raised about David Thompson are genuine issues, and genuine experiences and genuine concerns that people have. The sources for what is said are verifiable and true.
I am offended that some one is posting on this site claiming they have the right to say what our motives are, our intentions, who we are, and to allege, without any evidence whatsoever, that we are bully’s, or morally reprehensible, just because they do not agree with the views expressed. There is only one bully on this site as far as I can see, and it is the person who keeps accusing others of being bully’s.
“Hi Freddie
Thank you for those kind words. It is difficult to be meticulous and not be concerned with the minutiae at the same time”.
Hello Paul,
That is what makes you such a good circle leader. I on the other hand wanted to make the point in my post of the difficulties in developing physical mediumship as I think some of the people posting on this board think it is a breeze. I never saw Gordon Higginson or Albert Best demonstrate their clairvoyance. They have gone into folk law as being the finest exponents of this art. I bet along their journey they did not get everything right. Alec Harris did not start out as an outstanding materialization medium, he had to sit and develop. David in development terms is a young man who still has a long way to go. I think, and you must have thought too that he had a great gift worth developing that had the potential to show materialization in light. Why should it be the fact that he hasn’t reach that stage yet, stop him demonstrating some remarkable physical mediumship. I do know that when he was sitting with the Haymist Circle when you were circle leader he was not only very protected but also encouraged to push the barriers as far as possible. Very laudable. I have not seen him since left the UK, so have no idea what his circle was like in Oz. I was just very pleased to see him back albeit very briefly.
But I rather suspect I am preaching to the converted
You know it has been 5 years since we met up in York to watch Bill Meadows. Denzil has written a report of the séance we had with him 2 months ago. It was like night and day. His mediumship has improved immeasurably. His circle leader asked us not to shine a light in his eyes as he would not as you might think be burnt to toast, but would, wait for it, wake up. Remarkable
Hi Ann
I am glad that you had your evidence. Tom was certainly a delightful man and any communication with him must have been a pleasure whichever side of life it is.
I am really pleased about the fact that William has improved his vocabulary. He used to say ‘wiv’ and ‘fru’ all the time. It has always been a big question mark and one I found difficult to answer to people. Now that isn’t there, it is a milestone. Evidence of the incorrect pronunciation is on many tapes historically. These are the things I would love to hear about times moving on.
I wish someone else had picked the independent checkers, not David.
warm regards
Hi Louise
You have done well. Called us all liars when you cannot know what we have all experienced.
Said we are all anonymous even though not all of us are.
Accused us of posting hearsay whilst putting someone elses work on the posting.
Last but not least avoided all attempts at engaging in the discussion.
I will expect a rant about bullying at any time.
Paul Barker.
Bully for you Paul.
Thank you, Paul
I do still remember us all having dinner together 7 years ago, even though we weren’t able to sit together later. So Tom never had the chance to sit with David.
It wasn’t until Robin posted his account on PM4U this morning that I remember Emma Hardinge Britten coming through at the sitting and that beautiful voice. But her thanks must have been going to Linda Smith for all the work she did in raising the funds for the restoration and the memorial although Mavis did put her effort into it as well.
Then on Wednesday William Davenport came through in the seance. David had spoken about the work they had done at his grave in the afternoon so it was good to hear from him. And I have no doubts of the genuineness of the communication. Energy follows thought and we know if you think of a person the communicate on this level of life never mind the next where thought is all.
Ann
Tony, It is now vital that we can see what is going on at a materialisation experiment. However, until the perfect lighting conditions come along we can use modern technology just as long as it is no danger to the medium.
My son is a flying instructor in the RAF. He knows about our problem and went into a blacked out room with his night vision goggles. With these he could see everything. He told me he could even read the notice board.
When Helen Duncan materialised at the Rita Goold experiment in 1983 (by then she had already been checked out by Alan Cleaver) she told me that ever since she was killed as the result of a police raid in 1956 the chemists in the etheric wavelengths had been working very hard to refine the ectoplasm so that it would not be such a danger to the medium. This was the reason Helen gave me for contemporary mediums not being able to use red light like she did. But this does not matter now because we have instuments that can record in the dark. These were not perfected in 1956. I was allowed to touch Helen Duncan and I could feel no ectoplasm. However, Helen assured me that it was still used but that is now so fine we can’t feel it or see it.
Michael
I was allowed to touch Helen Duncan and I could feel no ectoplasm. However, Helen assured me that it was still used but that is now so fine we can’t feel it or see it.
Every time I sit for development, ectoplasm can ben flowing from my eyes,ears or mouth, it is also seen like a cloud above my head.
I have been developing for 10 years now and what I have mentioned has been the case since the early days of development.
Unless I am not reading the article the right way, I cannot go along with that statement.
I am open to be advised accordingly
I apologise for the spelling mistake in my previous post, should have read “can be seen flowing”
I also forgot to add, I have also felt it flowing over my lips, ther nearest I can describe is, it feels like water flowing gently over a boulder
Many thanks must surely go to Ann Harrison for her very comprehensive and in-depth report on the Festival Of Physical Mediumship held at the Acacia Centre in Spain. Not only has she provided an extremely detailed report concerning the stringent preparations used to verify David Thompson’s physical mediumship, but she has also shared with us her very personal experiences, with the spirit return of her much loved husband, Tom.
More than this, I feel her report has provided us all on this forum with ‘a big juicy apple’ of highly relevant truth and experience, especially concerning the tone of this debate, relating to the validity of David Thompson’s physical mediumship. From the details supplied by Ann, and her experiences at the Thompson séance, it would appear that David’s mediumship is definitely genuine, and I am also sure that Ann Harrison’s integrity is beyond question.
Like all mediums, from time to time it can be difficult to produce 100% results, and this is simply due to the ‘dimensional differences’ between the two worlds. Mediumship is a spirit science, and certain aspects of it we are yet to fully comprehend. It has been my experience that on quiet nights in a physical phenomena circle, that a great deal of work is still being carried out on the other side by the medium’s controls and helpers.
We must not forget that with all mediumship, we are dealing with ‘non-physical’ energies and frequencies, and there are so many variables that can affect a good result:
1. The physiological excellence of the medium at a given time. (And this can vary)
2. The atmosphere surrounding the medium at a given time, ( i.e. the circle sitters etc. and what general mental state they are in, at the time of the séance. This becomes even more relevant when you have ‘mixed’ newcomers to the circle etc.)
3. The atmosphere around the Earth at a given time.
4. The unknown conditions that the spirit helpers may be confronted with on the other side, at a given time.
5. To what extent the room has been prepared beforehand..etc.. etc. and even more.
When one considers all these variables, and good results are forthcoming, it is a testament to the tenacity and integrity of David Thompson’s spirit controls, who I am sure will be doing all they can to produce a positive result.
At times in rather difficult circumstances.
It has been my experience that some people will always remain unconvinced, even if they are presented with the most profound evidence for the after-life! But of course, our wonderful philosophy of Spiritualism is there for all seekers after truth, and the evidence is often there also for those who can and will accept it, rather than for those who never will!
Healthy debate on such issues as mediumship and other aspects of our unique philosophy will never do any harm, as long as such debate is carried out with fairness, and without prejudice..criteria that some people seem to struggle with at times.
Thank you Ann for taking the time to provide such an indepth report…I can confirm that my experience of David’s mediumship during the seance I attended, 2 days after Roy Stemmen’s, was very similar and provided clear evidential communication and extremely good phenomena. What I find it impossible to figure out is why your report has been given any thumbs down…your report is as balanced as Mr Stemmen’s…can only assume that it is because you have written something positive about David’s meiumship.
Warmest Regard
Denzil
Thank you Denzil
There will always be some who condemn but have they actually sat and receive communication and have they sat, albeit in dark mainly, with several diffrent mediums and felt the presence of spirit as we have. One wonders.
Someone said, not on this website, about the Minnie Harrison materialisations being in red light without problem BUT they were always in the HOME CIRCLE with known sitters and not in a public demonstation with the soup of energies that are encountered for the first time. As Stewart Alexander commented in his book – he thought at his first public sitting it would be a doddle with all the energy available but it was not so – too many new energies, even if they were sympathetic. To be mundane, just think what happens if you add too many new ingredients to your favourite successful cake mix !!!
Well it looks like the all out not so nice attack to isolate and ridicule serious enquirers of PM has failed and now we have the nice and patronizing approach. What has changed nothing is the answer, no light shed on anything material or spiritual. Until some form of light or heat monitoring is introduced then none of the evidence is creditable even a simple layer of chalk on the floor would suffice. Oh wait a minute that could be ingested by the sitter we can’t have that patrons will say and to that I say the opposite if one has blended and walked hand in hand with spirit nothing can harm them. If an untoward event is to take place spirit will allow for this and will bring back the sitter before the event happens.
John, As you know many mediums develope in a different way. I reported what happened at the Rita Goold experiment that I witnessed in 1983. I hope you don’t think that I was trying to rubbish other mediums who do not match what I witnessed. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Michael
Surely this post should provide enough reason for the debate to stop? It’s seems obvious from the genealogical research that DT ‘s ‘guides’ are not what they claim to be. I appreciate that everyone participating in this discussion is trying their level best to be objective, calm and open in their opinions. But I feel really strongly that ‘demonstrations’ of this type can do Spiritualism nothing but harm. I am sorry if I offend.
I have a big problem when those of us who are most vulnerable, the recently bereaved in the throes of raw grief, are given, as evidence of survival, demonstrations that amount to no more than pure showmanship. They offer no evidence of survival whatsoever. This then beggars the question: what point is there to such demonstrations, if they cannot be used to evidence survival? Are we then to assume that there are more questionable reasons for a medium to carry out such demonstrations? If they do not prove survival, then WHY are these demonstrations being given?
I am 100% sure Spirit would not wish to be a part of any demonstration which did not prove survival. That is, after all, the sole aim of Spirit – to prove survival beyond doubt, and comfort those who have lost loved ones in the process. Spirit will not be impressed by the appearance of so-called celebrities whose voices cannot be verified, and who have no connection to the sitters present. So what on earth is the point of them materialising?
Test him rigorously in lab conditions and make him and his wife take polygraphs. If they won’t do it, tell them to take a hike. Simple..
Vanda in a way you are right, but when we open ourselves to the spirit world we attract to ourselves spirit who may not be as evolved as would like to be. Remember, our level of thought will be matched accordingly, natural law says, like will attract like.
This is not a nice world in many ways, we mix with all vibrations on the earth plane, so with that in mind we have to always be on guard for those who are of a different vibration than ourselves. Because someone is a medium, does not qualify them to be spiritually evolved.
Thank you Michael.
No I wasn’t at all, it was the issue over ectoplasm being seen and touched that was all.
One of the problems of working this way is interpretation of what has been typed
Vanda
A agree that the main objective of any mediumship should be to prove survival. Surely that’s what a number of these posters are all about. They have stated that they have received personal information via DT that could not have been accessed by conventional means.
As far as I know many demonstrations contain personalities from the spirit realms that keep the tone light and so increase the vibrations so as to facilitate phenomena. The Scole experiment was an example of this.
However I also agree that a priority of materialisation mediums should be to allow scientific investigation in order to prove beyond doubt that the phenomena they are producing is genuine.
Vanda, Thank you for bringing a dose of truth and common sense to this long running saga. Your final paragraph says it all.
Vanda, You will be pleased to hear that the journalist Alan Cleaver did carry out an excellent scientific exercise with the materialisation medium Rita Goold in 1982. He physically reunited the “dead” Helen Duncan with her daughter Gena Brealey. They spoke together for over an hour. Ref.
ANOMALY (Association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomena:
ASSAP: March 1987) His full report is on my website http://www.cfpf.org.uk
Type The Cleaver Report in the search engine. This was crushing personal proof for Gena Brealey that her mother was still very much alive.
Michael Roll
Michael
I can’t get this connection as Google comes up saying that it has no proof I am not trying to connect through a non-personal automated link. How do I get this? I particularly want to connect to this as the publisher of Gena and Kay’s book ‘The Two Worlds of Helen Duncan’
egards
Ann
Hi Vanda,
As we spoke only recently about this very topic you know my view and it has been expressed clearly in the posts
I agree with you on this.
warm regards
I am not very knowledgeable about physical mediumship myself, having only been to a couple of physical seances. However, there is something very interesting about materialisation in Minister Eric Hatton’s book which might prove useful for this discussion.
“We Spiritualists may have fallen into a routine which restricts us. For instance, just take the fact that most of our physical work nowadays is done in the dark, whereas events in the relatively recent past prove beyond doubt that physical phenomena and even full materialisations are perfectly possible in lighted conditions.Experiences enjoyed in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) by mediums Albert Best and Stuart Lawson will serve to illustrate this point.
Albert, a highly respected clairvoyant and clairaudient medium, had lost his wife and children during the second world war. Decades later, while demonstrating his mediumship on tour in Rhodesia, he was taken on one of his free days to a small village hall which was home to a local “Medicine Man”. It was the middle of the day and the African sun shone down.
Greeting Albert, the Medicine Man surprised him by saying that he had been waiting for him. The two men sat down quietly together and after a while the Medicine Man slowly raised his arm. Underneath it were the miniature materialised forms of Albert’s wife and children.
Some time later, Stuart Lawson was in the same area and, having heard of Albert’s experience, decided to pay his own visit to the Medicine Man. Again, the arm was raised, and in the bright African daylight Stuart was able to see a loved one again.
I therefore wonder whether we in the western world have conditioned ourselves to abide by certain practices, and have by our own minds limited in some ways the manifestation of the spirit people into our physical world.”
Is Minister Hatton right when he suggests that a fixed mindset on the part of today’s physical mediums might in part be responsible for the fact that physical mediumship is now carried on almost entirely in dark rooms? He is extremely respected and and knowledgeable in the Spiritualist movement and his views perhaps merit discussion?
Again, I come back to the fact that there was not a soup of 35+ different energies as in a public dem. Just the medium and the sitter and a much simpler mode of existence away from the vast interference of the technological age.
Many sensitive people try to live away from all the trappings of our electronic world. Do we understand how radio/micowaves interfere with their access to us?
Thank you for your reply Ann. Are you suggesting that people would be able to show materialisation in light without micro and radio waves? It’s an interesting proposition. If so, could you outline your evidence for that view?
Ann, haven’t you just put forward the perfect argument that large public seances with a set of unfamiliar energies are unlikely to produce the best that physical mediumship has to offer? The great materialisation mediums – Helen Duncan, Alec Harris and of course Minnie Harrison, of whom through your husband you must know a great deal more than most of us – did not try to mass-market physical seances. My understanding is that they understood the importance of allowing just a few visitors at a time to the home circle so that familiar energies would dominate and, as a result, the highest and best of evidence could emerge.
To a degree they did, I remember my mother telling me she organised by word of mouth (which was the norm in those days) 2 seances with Alec Harris, at each one there was a full coach and they travelled from Portsmouth.
At the first seance there were 29 full materialisations and on the second 31, at one my, fathers guide materialized and spoke to him and on another my mother was initiated into the White Brotherhood.
Not bad for a new mix of new energies, but Alec was different to most materialisation mediums.
Hilary,
That is correct. Minnie Harrison never sat outside the Home Circle nor in any other place than their circle room so there could only be a few guests because of the size of the room and never made any charge, in fact provided them with supper.
Stewart Alexander has written in his book ‘An Extraordinary Journey’ of how he thought it would be fantastic to sit with many people and that the phenomena would be wonderful to find at it wasn’t and his years of public siitings have held back development.
We do not understand what is involved in the production of the phenomena, the preparation and circumstances needed. Even to speak. Tom has told me that it is far more difficult than even he thought possible and that is within a loving familiar home circle.
But I live in hope I will see him again before I join him in that beautiful world.
Dear Ann
“·Do we understand how radio/micowaves interfere with their access to us?”
I do. That is why I always wear a hat made from cooking foil and chicken wire!
Aruuel
I am unwilling to accept totally implausible explanations as to why Spirit cannot gain access to us in light conditions. As someone who has studied physics, if we believe that radio and microwaves interfere with Spirit’s access to us, then we may as well give up now.
There are at least nine types of waves in the electromagnetic spectrum. Mediums should not have carte blanche to blame these waves when they cannot produce phenomena in light conditions. Such waves are all around us 100% of the time, either produced naturally or as a by-product of the modern age. They were around in the time of Alec Harris, so why was he able to produce physical phenomena in light conditions? Surely it is not acceptable, in the light of this, for any medium nowadays to give interference from electromagnetic waves as an excuse for not being able to hold demonstrations in the dark.
Try as I might, I cannot see why Spirit today is apparently still having a problem with producing phenomena in the dark for some mediums, when Alec’s helpers in Spirit had evidently ‘solved’ such problems many years ago. Spirit is universal and timeless, and those who helped Alec will doubtless still be around today to pass on their knowledge to those of us on earth, or in Spirit, who request it.
I think we are forgetting that some mediums are more powerful than others, Alec Harris was exceptional, even spirit recognised that, to the point where they asked his wife to look after him, as they rarely get the opportunity to work with a medium with such power.
You cannot put a pint in a half pint container and expect the same results as if you would put in a half.
Those who worked with him from spirit would love the opportunity to work with someone like him, but alas, where are they?
Aruuel, this is the sort of reply that demeans the discussion. Grow up!
Hi All
After many of us have expressed our concerns over the medical issues raised her and who is responsible for what we believe to be unacceptable practice on certain occasions I read Victor’s comments in Psychic World with great interest. Victor, the lawyer, is it would seem to be warnng psychics that they need to “have training in their duty of care to clients”. He mentions the “dominant -subserviant relationship” He also argues as to the normal assumption of innocence until proven guilty would not apply. Please read the rest of the report as it is supportive of many of us who contribute on here.
With all of this in mind surely this makes the issues raised a serious point to be answered by Davd and other mediums when the certain “claims and solutions” are spoken about. How would the subserviant and maybe vulnerable client take such advice. When a woman was told that she did not need her breast removed after it had already been removed. When the issue of people being cured simply have not been and in some cases have passed away these need explainations. A doctor would be struck off for such behaviour.
We cannot allow for trance to be an excuse or get out for such behaviour. There has to be a level of responsibility. When I was talking about this to a friend the other day he asked what should the medium do its simple do not sit. Do not carry out healing until the medium has tested spirit to the degree of satisfaction that no one will be harmed or misled Do not expose the vulneralbe to healing if this is what is coming out from the mediums mouth or voice box and wherever the source.
In Sweden the President of a healing federation was sent to gaol for inappropriate action against women. Would he have been excused if he had been in trance.
Hats off to Garth Willey who stood up and resigned his post as he said he did not want to be part of an orginisation that would not remove the man even after his conviction.
warm regards
Ann, Not sure why you can’t read The Cleaver Report on my website. I have the magazine and can photocopy it for you. Is there an address I can send it to. It’s vital you have this if you are writing a book on the subject.
Thank you Michael, I have sent it via your website.
Hi Michael,
I too could not access the article with the link you provided but by a bit of searching on your site was able to find it and yes, it was an intersting article, so thanks for pointing our attention to it.
I would add my thanks to Ann for her report on the seances she attended and can appreciate the sincerity of her report. It makes for interesting reading, and I think adds to our understanding of David Thompson’s mediumship. My only question, when reading it, is whether Ann was aware at the time she was sitting, that neither William Charles Cadwell, or Timothy, actually ever had the lives they both claim to have had, and would this knowledge have affected her belief in the experience.
I appreciate that Ann’s information, received from her husband, appears to have been conclusive and not such as would have been generally known, and that must be a powerful incentive to believe in the validity of David’s mediumship.
So I genuinely ask Ann whether, in her opinion, the lack of veracity of David’s guides matters, or whether such inconsistencies are not actually relevant in the greater scheme of things. I do not ask this in any sense to be argumentative, but am genuinely desirous of her opinion as I think everyone who has been curious about the questions arising about the claims of William and Timothy not standing up to examination do wonder what credence they should then place on them and their utterances.
I must also ask, in the same context, whether other remarks made by David’s guides, which have, in the healing context for example, proved to be so contrary to our usual standards of ethical and spiritual responsibility and accountability, should be just dismissed as irrelevant.
Lis I think you have raised a very important question. If one part of someone’s mediumship has been proved false how much credence can be placed on the rest of it? I suppose the answer could be that the utterances of David Thompson’s guides are not his responsibility but that does seem like a cop out. If his guides cannot be trusted should he really be sitting at all until that aspect of his mediumship has been sorted out? My answer would be that he shouldn’t but I respect that others may feel differently but I do think it is an important subject for discussion.
Lis
You have raised some interesting points but I reget that at present I do not have time to write the answer this post deserves as I am desperately trying to make the deadline on a new book, before I take a short holiday next week. I do hope to be able to reply by the weekend.
Ann
From Liz – “whether Ann was aware at the time she was sitting, that neither William Charles Cadwell, or Timothy, actually ever had the lives they both claim to have had, and would this knowledge have affected her belief in the experience.
Liz – no this would not have affected my KNOWLEDGE of what came through. I know of others who do not disclose or cannot remember the exact life details. My great great grandfather’s family disappears from the census records when they should have been there. So why do we assume the records are correct?
I know nothing about the healing side of David’s mediumship and therefore am not willing to enter into any discussion about it.
I do know that some years ago David invited Tom and me to sit with him but because of other commitments we were not able to do so – to our loss. Would a fraudulent medium invite someone who was so experienced in physicl phenomenaand materialisation to sit with him?
I have no more to say on the matter and I look forward to other sittings with David when I hope we shall have light – in whatever form.
Ann
Hi Ann,
We have been through teh questioning of the genealogy many times and missing records are rare especially when you are cross checking amongst varying records and considering other possible names. I know Lis is a considerable expert on this work which requires patience and precision something lacking in much home based research. Additionally when Timothy originally gave details he was born 2 years after the purported WCC therefore they could never have met as is the current claim. I am aware that normally such details are not given by the guides but in this case they were. If that is the case would we not expect the guides to be truthful.
If they are not telling the tuth we must look at the value of their pronouncements and at the very least the ones above, about aspirins, AIDS and Downs syndrome, should give us some reason to question. .Then we have the healing issues which seem to permeate through Mr Thompson, William and his Doctor guide all claiming non-existent cures.
I do understand that you are personally sure that the information given was correct but others are clearly less certain. Hopefully one day we will get an answer. maybe it should be something for a qualified scientific or paranormal investigator. Just imagine how far ahead we may be if Mr Thompson had taken up Prof. Garry Schwartz offer or if Montague Keen and the SPR had undertaken proper research not just Mr Keen’s single Seance visit. Sadly, as illustrated by an email sent from Mr Thompson to Michael Roll in 2002 , Mr Thompson had absolutely no intention of undertaking research.
jim
HI All
In continuation of my concern, spread over many years regarding healing matters I wanted to widen the net.
Some years ago I went to Stephen Turoff (In Essex) with a pain in the top of my shoulder that would not go away. I went with a bus load of people nearly all of whom who had been many times before. When I went in the right mood was created, the pictures of Holy men and the smell of peace and love wafting from candles.
I went into a room where Stephen was in trance, I took off my shirt and he proceeded to carry out psychic surgery He scratched the bottom of my back removed the offending part duly thrown into an empty bucket to make the most noise, and told me that the problem was I played too much football. I said that I did not play football and that the pain was in my shoulder as first mentioned to him, he rudely and gruffly said that I did. I explained to him that this was total %$^&* and went out to the waiting crowd.
The fellow clients/patients asked to see my scar!!!!! I took off my shirt and there it was on my shoulder. How could this be when he did not touch my shoulder and operated on my low back. How much did they need to see what they had expected to see. How wrong was Stephen/Dr.Khan to completely get it so worng and continue to argue with me as to what I had wrong and how he thought it had been caused, i.e. football.
I did come out of this injured as my fingers were sore for months where his wife had snatched the money at such a speed friction burns were the only marks on me.
Seriously people were there with serious conditions and even more serious hope for a cure. I have always been prepared to speak out about Stephen but people don’t want to hear as it destroys the myth and have been a lone voice. I did feel a little vindicated when Turoff was in the caves in outer wherever and even his wife was no longer supportive.
This is not to say that healing can’t or doesn’t work of course ( I have been lucky enough to experience and see where it has been briliant) but I could have come away from that experience with Turoff as an emotional wreck to add to my physical pains.
I want the day to come when the vulnerable feel they can challenge the mediums and we can create an environment where it is positive to do so.
These situations can only imporve when the dominant have true respect for the subserviant as Victor Zammit puts it. I agree with you Victor I look forward to your being consistant.
warm regards
Paul
You have lost me on this. You say he treated your lower back but a scar appeared on your shoulder, apparently in the appropriate place? How do you explain this? Did your condition improve?
Hi Peter,
Sorry for the confusion.
No the condition did not change at all. My point, not perhaps put well enough, was that Turoff/Khan argued with me where the trouble was and its cause.
The point about the onlookers comments after the “operation” is that they saw what they wanted to see. They were determined to see a scar even though there was not one. So they looked at where the expected scar should be on the shoulder and filled in the rest for themselves.
My disappointment was not just in the fiasco of Turoff/.Khan and entourage but also of the ease at which observers will follow the party line and not question or listen to what they perceive to be negativity
Thank you Peter
warm regards
Hello everyone. (Sorry this post is so long!) Well, concerning Stephen Turoff, I’m going to set the cat among the pigeons here! I have a good friend in Northern England called John, who many years ago visited Stephen Turoff for healing. John had some serious heart problems at the time, and there was talk of a ‘myectomy’ by a surgeon, (which is where the surgeon removes some of the septum in the heart to allow better blood flow to the aorta.) John has been in the British Army, and is a very down to earth chap. The following extract is from one of many letters I have received from John, so I will let him describe in his own words his experience with Stephen Turoff:
“Stephen walked into the room. He was a big man. I’m talking about 6′ 5 inches tall, and well built with it. He said, “Good Afternoon” and looked at the card I had filled in. “Heart Problem” he said. “OK.” This was said in what we Northerners would call a Cockney (London) accent.
With it being a warm period, I had only put a shirt on, however he opened my shirt to the waist. He went over to the sink in the corner of the room and rinsed out a cloth. He then put this cloth onto my chest and placed his hands on it.
He closed his eyes and his hands became like two hot plates, hot but not uncomfortable. He was standing to one side of me so that my wife had a perfect view of everything. I had my eyes open, and Stephen’s features began to change. After just a few moments he took the cloth from my chest and threw it over and into the sink.
He then took a knife from the trolley which was by his side,and plunged it straight into my chest! My wife gasped, and I felt the knife going in, but felt no pain. After several “slashings” with the knife in my heart area, he took out the knife and then pushed forceps into this same area and tugged something out. He wrapped this in cotton wool and threw it into a bin,where it landed with a “thud.”
Remember that all Stephen knew about me, was that I had a “Heart Problem.” It seems that he knew exactly what type of heart problem I had, and I realised that I had undergone “Open Heart Surgery” without anaesthetic.
This is surely what I had just been given.
He then went through a process of stitching me up, at least going through the motions. I felt as if sutures were being inserted, yet again there was no pain. After this part of the operation, he then took the damp cloth and put it on my chest.
Again he placed his hands on the cloth for a few moments, then threw the cloth into the sink, and said to me in an Austrian/German accent, “I will see you in one month time, have a nice day.” With that he limped out of the room, looking considerably smaller than the usual Stephen.
And that was my meeting with Stephen Turoff.
I sat up and eased myself from the table. My wife said, “Did I see what I just saw?” I didn’t know what to say, we were both too overwhelmed to speak.
On our way back up to the North of England we stopped at a restaurant. I got out of the car, and whilst still in the car park, I opened my shirt. There was a red weal (like a raised up mark.) This was about 4 inches long, and there were also flecks of blood among the hairs on my chest. This weal would last about 24 hours.
It is perhaps 9 years since my psychic operation. Yes, I still take medication. Yes, I still have my ups and downs. But I will swear that I have never been as ill as I was, before I saw Stephen Turoff.”
(John told me later that he did return to Stephen Turoff in a month, and this time the procedure was even more remarkable, as an aluminium ‘retractor’ was used top hold open the rib cage, as Stephen went into his chest this time, and his wife verified that she saw it happen as well.)
It has been my experience with Spiritual Healing, particularly if the healer is also a genuine trance medium, that such ‘healing phenomena’ seems to depend upon several ‘conditions’ at the time, which relate to ‘frequency levels’ between the two worlds, and also the ‘harmonic frequency’ (for want of a better word) between the healer and patient at a given point in time. Perhaps this accounts for the mixed results that sometimes different people experience?
As a healer myself for the last forty years, in my healing practice, I have had several amazing experiences that could only be described as “healing phenomena’ although they have always taken place after the patient has visited me, which included ‘openings’ in the body etc. where purulent fluid has been released, all totally verified by several people.
Spiritual healing is a ‘Spirit Science’ and we have yet so much to learn!
Unfortunately, much of the media investigation (in my country anyway) has always been “let’s do our best to disprove it”..rather any positive approach to try and discover what is really happening etc. in a scientific way.
Hi Douglas,
I am most interested to hear your friend’s story and cannot think of a good reason for him to make it up. I am pleased to hear positive findings in anyone and their work. I also have witnessed some amazing things carried out by healers in whatever their style. I worked with a healer called Irene Sowter who worked on donation only. She did some fabulous work including animal healing. The fee does not worry me for healing or seances it is the truth and honesty of what goes on at the time (if you are made to feel better through a healer or are connected with a loved one through a medium, what price is the right one?).
I cannot think of any good reason for Turoff/Khan to argue with me as I went with an excited and positive feeling. I have equally never entered a seance room with a negative approach. I always want to be open minded as I know that amazing things can and do happen.
Your report should not set the cat amongst the pigeons but keep the discussion going and if anyone has any idea why my experience occured I would genuinly love to hear about it.
warm regards
Visited PM4U web site recently to discover several video clips showing attempts of Warren Caylor trying to produce ectoplasm…I’m not having a go at Warren but I have heard reports, from several years back, that sitters had witnessed Warren producing copious ammounts of ectoplasm, in red light, during some of his seances. My question would be is perhaps the lack of ectoplasm flowing, in this recent footage, indicative of the difficulty Spirit have producing ectoplasm when infra red or similar other low lux enhancing rays are used to try and capture them. Only ever sat once with Warren, that was before he went public and I didn’t witness the production of ectoplasm with him. Would therefore suggest, from what is shown on the clips, that he has either taken a step backwards or indeed the low lux enhancing rays do have a negative effect and could possibly be the reason why Spirit do not allow it to be used…presumably these rays are somewhat different to the emmissions from an ordinary red light bulb??
Hi Paul,
Many thanks for your reply, and the sentiments you expressed concerning my friends’ visit to Stephen Turoff. John also had a good result with Harry Edwards years ago, when his wife suffered from very painful kidney stones. She used to break out in sweats, and cry at night with the pain. She was eventually scheduled for surgery, but John couldn’t stand it anymore, and contacted Harry. Two nights later, she awoke to see a man in a white coat standing by her bed. When she spotted him, he vanished before her eyes. She told John about it, and he said, “You must have been dreaming.” From that next day, she awoke pain free, and remained so until her operation two weeks later. John took her into the hospital for her surgery, but when they got there, final scans and x-rays before surgery showed the stones had completely gone. They drove back home, and she has been pain free ever since.
The following thoughts came into my head when I was reading your post. I can understand your consternation as to why Dr.Khan would argue with you, especially as you were approaching the whole affair with interest and sincerity. It sounds somewhat trite, but maybe he (Stephen or Dr.Khan) were having an off day. Just a thought. As much as we don’t want it, or understand it, it can happen, rarely. Unfortunately, being ‘in Spirit’ does not endow one with ‘instant soul growth’ etc. and we apparently still very much retain our earthly personalities, at least for an undefined period of time anyway, until we are drawn to higher levels of progression etc.
Curiously, over the years, I have read where certain types of mediums (who may be brilliant at their work) needed some form of ‘extra energy’ from the person to complete their work. (Although I’m not sure if this was the case with Stephen Turoff.) Most likely not. Some of them have also had quite volatile personalities, which interestingly, didn’t really get in the way of their mediumship! Frank Leah (the psychic artist) comes to mind. Apparently, he would phone people up, and almost abuse them, with the result that some of them got quite annoyed with him. However, when they arrived on his doorstep, he would produce an amazing portrait of a loved one! He would then apologize to them, and explain that he needed ‘to generate more energy from them’ to obtain the power to produce the result.
Having said that, I suspect on a deeper level of operation, there may have been some kind of ‘energy incompatibility’ that was causing Dr.Khan some difficulty, and he expressed his frustration with you. Of course, I’m not really sure if that was the case. Situations like you experienced seem incomprehensible when they occur, and I can understand your dismay, it must have been very disappointing as well, with your hopeful expectations being somewhat shattered.
I have been a ‘full time’ Spiritual Healer for just over forty years now (back then,a rarity in this country, Australia) and do accept donations to maintain my work, and cover expenses etc. During that time, I have seen many hundreds of people for Spiritual Healing help. But strangely, over the years, there have been one or two times when a patient has sat in front of me, and I was impelled to say, “I’m sorry..I can’t help you.”
In such cases, I was somewhat more dismayed than the patient. In most cases, I feel it has something to do with conditions on the other side, at that point in time.
It can sometimes (although rarely) happen with mediumship as well, with clairvoyant sittings. When this happens, you end up spending much time trying to convince the poor person that they are not “bad” or that your helpers don’t like them etc.
The sense of disappointment is palpable with both medium and sitter at the time. Fortunately, it doesn’t happen very often. But when it does, you have to be true to your guidance, and to your helpers, who may be sending you that information or feeling etc.
With private sittings, it has sometimes been a blessing, especially as circumstances ‘after the event’ may demonstrate Spirit’s far-seeing capability to protect the medium (or healer) from some form of negativity, that at the time cannot be known by them. In the cases I have experienced, this had nothing to do with the person directly, but was related to someone else, or some “event” that could not be known at the time, by either of us.
I have read of Irene Sowter many years ago, and I know she did much good work as a healer. It must have been very satisfying to work with her Paul.
Best Wishes,
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT- THE TRUTH WILL OUT
Materialization mediums have historically had to put up with lies, distortions and personal attacks. It’s bad enough when these come from the materialists but after many years of keeping silent in the face of such attacks and most unfair provocations by a tiny number of people claiming to be ‘spiritual’ I feel it is time to set the record straight for the sake of decent people who may inadvertently come across those attacks on the internet.
The negative and damaging article by Roy Stemman
Recently while I was on tour in the UK and Spain, Roy Stemman wrote a very negative article about my mediumship on the basis on one sitting. In it he made many inaccurate claims which I want to set straight.
First I want to point out that Roy Stemman is not a qualified afterlife investigator. As far as I know he is a journalist and knows nothing about scientific method. His article was written as a ‘layperson’ and with an ‘agenda’. It also shows he does not know about the refinements of physical mediumship.
On the other hand Montague Keen, who was the President of the Survival Committee of the Society of Psychical Research and a member for this SPR for fifty five years, investigated my mediumship and wrote a glowing report. His conclusion was that my mediumship is genuine.
After Montague Keen died he materialized through my mediumship on a number of occasions and a speech he dictated while materialized was read out at his funeral. He spoke to his wife, Veronica, while materialized and she confirmed that it was genuinely Montague. And recently while I was on the same tour Robin Foy wrote three detailed and highly favorable reports on my mediumship. He claimed that he received evidential personal messages through my mediumship for which he had been waiting for a number of years. He is probably one of the most experienced afterlife investigator to-day, someone who has investigated physical mediumship for more than fifty years and was one of the key sitters in the highly regarded Scole Group.
I was also investigated thoroughly and systematically over a long period of time by a specialist in evidence – a lawyer – and by a psychologist. Both have professional degrees in scientific methodology and professional experience. Because they were totally convinced of the validity of my mediumship they asked me if they could join The Circle of the Silver Cord.
The True Facts
1) Roy says that he was expecting the séance to be conducted in red light yet he is on record for criticizing the fact that my sittings, like those of Rita Gould and Stewart Alexander, are held in total darkness. The first sentence on the form that all sitters have to sign before attending states: “All sittings are held in total darkness” and this is made clear repeatedly in the pre-séance talks.
2) In the séance forms and pre-séance briefing it is made very clear that having a negative mindset can seriously interfere with the energy and affect the phenomena. People who have not investigated physical mediumhip do not understand this fundamental fact. Having even one person in a room, with a negative mindset can reduce the number of materializations that happen and the strength of the phenomena. Coming to a séance with an already preconceived belief that unless the mediumship is held in lighted conditions it is not genuine is totally unethical. By having a fixed negative mind, Roy himself contributed to ‘lowering’ the energy of the séance.
3) Roy says “that there was no evidence of anything paranormal in the séance” that he attended. Yet other people who were there commented on the extraordinary precision of the trumpets that flew around the room at lightning speed without hitting anyone and the fact that my chair was levitated and moved several meters at the end. Both my feet were strapped in. Tony Pappard, a journalist with mediumship skills, is on record for stating that his partner came through with highly evidential messages. Dr David Fontana who investigated the Scole Experiment left a highly evidential message for a person who sits in another circle. Ray Lister, Stewart Alexander’s Circle Leader confirmed this and complimented myself and Christine after the séance.
4) “The medium controlled everything.” That is blatantly untrue. I did not do the searching, did not lead the circle, did not see the forms before the séance, did not strap myself into the chair, did not secure the gag and the binds, did not hold the clippers, did not control the music. The only thing I did was scan everyone with the metal detector and seat people (see next point). Given that my life is on the line because of the highly sensitive ectoplasm, I am unwilling to put both these responsibilities onto others. These kinds of misrepresentations I am informed amount to malicious writing against me.
5) “The medium placed the sitters and would have been in a position to know where people sat.” Again this shows Roy’s inexperience with energy work as explained in point 2. Anyone who has sat in a darkened séance room knows that it is extremely difficult to move around without bumping into people and impossible to walk across the room and touch someone on the head without first groping around to find them. In any event, as Robin Foy remarked at a subsequent séance, the materialized forms moved from one side of the large room to the other in an instant- something impossible for a bumbling human to do in the dark.
6) Roy continues to misrepresent when he claims that I knew who would be attending and saw their forms and in advance of the séance, implying that I would use the information to search out facts about people attending. I had a quick look at the list and did not object to anyone- even Roy Stemman who is on record for having been skeptical of my mediumship before the séance. However I did not see any of the forms which are kept by the organizers who checked the IDs.
Asking people to sign the form and provide evidence of their identity again on entry is a way of reducing the likelihood of someone giving their ticket to another person whose intent may not be of a positive nature and out to prove the medium is a fraud by grabbing the materializations. This is done because of legal advice given to me. The form was introduced because a New York lawyer stated that if he was allowed to attend he would do a football tackle onto the materialized spirit. Such things have happened in the past e.g. to Alec Harris when a trusted sitter obtained tickets and then passed them on to two skeptical journalists who tried to grab a materialized form. As a result Alec was almost killed and his mediumship was never the same.
Legal advice stated it was important to make every potential sitter aware of his/her legal duty and liability should they violate the strict security protocols. This is important so that they will take seriously their obligations and know that they will be held legally accountable for their behavior and cannot plead ignorance afterwards. The Circle never had problems with decent people, but it is critically important to follow legal procedures. I make no apology for doing everything to protect my health and my safety since in the past I have been cut, burned and bruised by sitters who were not aware of the danger.
7) In any event the kind of evidence that comes though in a personal reunion is not the kind of thing that can be researched in advance on the internet- things like what was put into the coffin of your loved one, pet names, the way a loved one behaved, the last words you said to them.
8) Roy’s misleading report claims that a competent stage illusionist could have escaped from the cable ties and run around the room in the dark for one and a half hours, manipulating the trumpets and creating the voices of William, Timothy, Louis Armstrong, Quentin Crisp, May, David Fontana, Tony Pappard’s partner George and the lady’s grandfather. He would have had to re-attach the plastic straps and obtain new cable ties and clip them off to the same length. This would mean that I would also have had to have created all the hundreds of the voices of loved ones who spoke in hundreds of reunions over the last ten years including voices in Russian, French and Chinese as well as imitating barking dogs which jumped on their owners’ laps.
I remind Roy that I am not a competent stage illusionist- I worked in the aviation industry. And I have a strong English accent. If I could do what he claims I would be making a lot more money in a magic act in Las Vegas.
I also remind him that a number of experienced investigators including Montague Keen and Robin Foy have thoroughly inspected the plastic one way cable ties I always use and concluded that it is not humanly possible to escape from them. Montage Keen’s report stated – in his own words:
”It is almost an article of faith among many psychical researchers that unless physical phenomena are capable of being clearly witnessed, or alternatively that infra-red video recording is available, no persuasive evidence of anything paranormal is possible. Although the spirit portrayed as Sir William Crookes explained why an infra-red video camera might be damaging to the medium at his present stage of development, the general rule of evidentiality may be broken if the other security measures justify an unambiguous assertion that deception on the part of the medium was impossible. The nature of the ties would have prevented the medium, no matter how strong or agile, from escaping his bonds without first managing to cut the ties. Even had he been able to do so, he could not have regained his seat and retied the knots unaided, employing a new set of uncut ties, unless he had been helped by someone able to work deftly, accurately and swiftly in pitch dark. No-one in the séance room could have attempted that without ready detection. Moreover my careful examination of the chair showed no sign of any movable join. Finally, the reversal of the medium’s cardigan while he was still bonded to his seat defies normal explanation. The precautions here were superior even to those employed by Schrenck Notzing on Eva C, who was sewn into a single garment, or on the physical medium Jack Webber, where less sophisticated tying methods, and materials, were used …The voices themselves could not have come from the gagged medium. The only other “regulars” on whom suspicion might rest were his wife, Paul the leader who was seated next to me, and whose voice and location would have clearly identified him, and DF, the host, who was seated at the opposite end of the room from the medium. Any of these possibilities would have easily and immediately detectable by those present, as well as likely to be defeated by listening to the tape recording.”
9) The report claims falsely that Harry Houdini is a member of the spirit team and implies that he gave me instructions in escapology. Please!!! A spirit claiming to be Harry Houdini came through – as a visitor – just a few times in 2007 and has not done so since and all visits were recorded. His main purpose was to apologize for his persecution of the Davenport Brothers and Margery Crandon. At no time did he even mention escapology.
10) On a number of special occasions when the energy is right William allows sitters to approach the cabinet, turn on a red light, and see that I am still unconscious in the chair at the same time as he or other spirits are talking in direct voice. During the recent tour Robin Foy witnessed two independent checkers doing this. In the home circle lawyer Victor Zammit and medium Sunny Burgess have had this experience. However the energy field has to be extremely good for this to happen and the person approaching the cabinet has to have William’s complete trust.
11) R Stemman unfairly accuses me outright of fraud when he says that the materializations felt like a normal human being- “which they clearly were”. This shows he has not done his research. Everyone who has ever experienced contact with a fully materialized figure states that they feel normal to the touch and sound like a normal human being. In one case a doctor examined a fully materialized figure produced by Mirabelli and found that he had a pulse and heartbeat. Clearly this shows Roy is limited in his knowledge about materializations.
12) Again Roy implies fraud – a very serious damaging and unfounded claim – by saying that the boot William placed on Roy’s foot had a ridge on it ‘like David’s trainers’. How can he tell the difference between boots which have ridged soles and trainers? Did he not notice that the voice of William who was six foot two was much higher in the room than mine would have been and that William’s hand placed on his head was much larger than mine? At a subsequent séance in Spain, and specifically in relation to Roy’s claim, Robin Foy asked William to demonstrate the sound of his boots on the floor and showed it was completely different to the sound of trainers. This also shows that Roy ‘had an agenda’ before the séance.
13) R Stemman found it peculiar that the materialized David Fontana knew that Roy was writing a book but didn’t know that Roy had recently sent it to publishers when Roy wrote about it on his website. More credible is that David Fontana heard his colleagues in the spirit world mention the book in connection with the fact that Roy Stemman would be sitting. Why would Roy think David Fontana would be interested to read his website? Just because we go to the spirit world we don’t suddenly become all knowing.
14) The report claims that David Fontana offered no survival evidence when he would have been acutely aware of the need for such evidence. However Ray and June Lister confirmed that they were given a message to take to someone not present about something they knew nothing about. Is this not the best kind of survival evidence?
15) The report claims that Tony Papard was unhappy with the quality of evidence he received when the very next day Tony confirmed that he had been in contact with his deceased partner who confirmed everything. Tony has gone on record that he was very happy with the survival evidence. He writes: –
”. At the last sitting in August this year my partner came thru with some …evidential stuff including the name of a friend’s dog and an analogy about barriers dividing loved ones concerning something we disagreed about in life – the Berlin Wall. It was significant that the 50th anniversary of its erection was the night of August 13th/14th 2011 and the séance was on August 15th 2011. My partner mentioned the 28 years this barrier stood, i.e. the barrier between this world and the next. My partner spoke in a soft, shy voice as in life (he hated speaking in public and there were about 30 people at the séance.) I felt his small hands touch my cheeks. Although he couldn’t get the voice right as a first-time communicator by this method, I know it was him. He also said he was a ‘pain’ in life, and another medium gave me a similar message from him, that he could be ‘selfish’. This was also evidential, though as I replied to him at the séance I could be a right pain too at times.
16) The report claims that there was nothing strikingly evidential in the father-daughter reunion but he then says that Tony Papard was the only person he spoke to after the séance. How would he know what was evidential to the daughter if he didn’t ask?
17) He then goes on to suggest that more survival evidence would be produced in my mental mediumship and trance sessions. Clearly this shows his bias against physical mediumship. I am also informed by another reliable member of my Circle that Roy had expressed anti-materialization views well before the séance.
I don’t deny that physical mediumship is so logically impossible to people who have not studied it that their minds go into turmoil trying to find whether it is a trick. This is why we bend over backwards to include as many security protocols as we can without jeapodising the phenomena.
However the way that Stemman rushed into print the very next morning without checking the above facts and his subsequent actions in allowing a few people who had existing grudges against me to post on his forum without giving their names shows a total disregard for ethics. Also most serious, was when he deliberately omitted any mention of the reports of Montague Keen and Robin Foy and others like Ann Harrison, Tom and Lisa Butler, the directors of ATransC, who have written positive reports of their experiences and the personal evidence they received.
It is no coincidence that the main people posting on his forum and the Spirit of PN forum where he immediately placed his article are people who have a long-standing personal agenda against me who I will reveal the reasons for with back up evidence in the future. Others who supposedly support them anonymously have no credibility- it is very easy to create multiple fake accounts for anonymous posting on a forum.
Sadly this little group of cohorts was and still is allowed to jump on the bandwagon created by Roy Stemman’s willfully biased reporting – to intentionally hurt me. There is a saying ‘Birds of a Feather flock together”.
I don’t deny that physical mediumship is not for everyone. If you are skeptical and can’t accept the possibility of materialization in the dark it’s not for you. Don’t apply to attend a séance that is clearly stated as being held in the dark on the protocol forms.
Also don’t try to score cheap points by omission and distortion. A fair and balanced view is to give ALL facts not just the ones that fit a person’s personal agenda. In the end you will only be hurting yourself because decent people will avoid any forum that encourages spitefulness, envy, hatred and negativity.
David Thompson (Circle of the Silver Cord)
David, thank you for your post. I should just correct one misunderstanding. Roy Stemman didn’t place his article here. I offered to host a downloadable PDF because his website crashed just hours after his report was published. Sue
Hi Paul,
I recall, many years ago now, taking my youngest daughter to Colin Fry for healing sessions on her eyes…have also been present at a couple of his trance healing demo’s. His Spirit Doctor’s bedside manner during our earlier visits was awful…he was really quite abrupt, sometimes rude and quite intimidating…to me this came across as a stereo-typical arrogant surgeon (as portrayed in TV hospital programmes). However, the healing and advice given by Colin’s doctor (whose name escapes me now) definitely produced positive results and as the healing sessions went on his manner mellowed to that of a friendly GP…I’m truly glad we persisted with the visits and didn’t allow ourselves to be put off by his initial grumpy personality.
Warm Regards
David, I have been supporting materialisation mediumship with all my might ever since I attended a Rita Goold demonstration in 1983 and received personal proof that my father had survived the death of his physical body. I understand that you may not be ready for an experiment with infra-red cameras but how about letting you close supporter Victor Zammit use night vision goggles? Somebody you can trust. My son uses these as a pilot in the RAF. He went into a blacked out room and could even read the notice board wearing his goggles. They could not harm you in any way. Your friends reports could then knock your critics for six.
What a a grand piece of prose Mr Thompson has complied you would almost think it had been written by a lawyer arguing a court case. It attacks Mr Stemmans article in an erroneous way and does not allow for the fact the writer gave two reports or views then gave the reader the opportunity to decide and many people chose the sceptics view as it is their right to do so and have been attacked in not a very nice manner by posters on this site for doing so.
The healing issue has not been addressed and it is upsetting to see people in denial of it.
Please do not worry folks, it is only a matter of time with the advent of new and sophisticated surveillance equipment the truth will out and when it does every-one will run for cover.
Mr Thompson is to appear at the most holy of holies Stansted Hall in January next year run by FOSH and I would advise every-one to attend, then they can make up their own minds and be much wiser for it
For you information some people were exposed at Stansted. one had the flowers hidden in the back of his stereo .
Another one was exposed by Mike Scott (an astrophysicist) who had set up an infra-red camera in the radiator in the Blue Room at Stansted where a physical séance was taking place.
A few patrons sat in the bar and watched it on a monitor. The medium was caught on camera getting out of his seat a number of times.
He disappeared off the scene pretty quickly after that exposure.
Hello Jock,
An interesting response to DT’s posting…I’m quite sure David and Christine would be delighted to welcome you and any of the skeptics, posting on this forum, to join them at Stansted Hall providing they went along with an open, albeit skeptical, attitude…they would then be able to witness for themselves the whole that makes up the pre-seance, seance and post seance scenario instead of extracting the odd detail which they manage to find fault with.
Jock said….”For you information some people were exposed at Stansted. one had the flowers hidden in the back of his stereo and aother one was exposed by Mike Scott (an astrophysicist) who had set up an infra-red camera in the radiator in the Blue Room at Stansted where a physical séance was taking place.
A few patrons sat in the bar and watched it on a monitor. The medium was caught on camera getting out of his seat a number of times.
He disappeared off the scene pretty quickly after that exposure”
I’m not quite sure what you are suggesting…but what this so called man of science pulled off was wholly unforgiveable…luckily for him the medium in this instance was fraudulent…but just stop for one minute and consider the consequences had the medium been genuine. Talk about the curse of ignorance…this is just the sort of idiotic action Arthur Findlay would have despaired at. I can only presume the scientist didn’t know the credentials of this medium beforehand but just decided (in a scientific manner) to take it into his own hands and sneakilly hide a camera in the seance room without thought for the medium’s safety or wellbeing. I’ve heard of some stupid things being done in seance rooms in the past…to your fellow country woman being the prime example…but this just about takes the biscuit 😦
Sincerely,
Denzil
G’day Jock,
I am one of “the 4” you refer to when you state in a later post..
” Hello folks the last time I looked there was 8 people who liked my recent post and there were 4 who did not.” To the nice people who did not, could you give your reasons why not and if you have( the balls, oh sorry) the moral fibre, please add your name. I stand up for my beliefs and am proud to do so .”
In your earlier reply to David Thompson you state…
“Mr Thompson is to appear at the most holy of holies Stansted Hall in January next year run by FOSH and I would advise every-one to attend, then they can make up their own minds and be much wiser for it”
Just one question Jock.. you say that you advise everyone to attend the above and then make up their own minds and be much wiser for it.. I am curious if you have ever attended a David Thompson Physical séance?
If the answer is “yes” then I will endeavour to treat your comments with a little more respect.
If the answer is “no”, then I would politely suggest that you and everyone else commenting here, who has never attended a David Thompson physical séance to take your terrific advice and go and witness a Physical Demonstration by David, before making any further comments.
Imagine me, an old Cobber from Outback Australia, trying to tell you anything about Dunfermline Jock… I have never had the good fortune to visit your little part of the world. However, I’m sure I will one day.
I imagine that is is indeed beautiful, but, I will reserve my judgment until I witness it for myself.. no matter what I hear from others.
Billy Stewart
Canberra (outback) Australia.
Wow Billy
Billy Stewart
Canberra (outback) Australia
Very interesting Canberra was and is a place created in teh 1920’s as teh Federal Capital of Australia, it has never been nor will be a part of the Outback. It is the home of politocians, fat cats and the spin doctors.
As an Aussie I am stunned you would say that and play the Aussie Cobber. Please anyone who reads this take this fact into consideration in regard to Billy’s comments. canberra is as outback as Washington or Westminster even though the Kangaroos may be closer..
Come on Billy who are you? the writing was very much like one of our many PomAussies, that is Englishmen who have come to Australia. There are very few Old Cobbers from Canberra, you would have been much better to have been an old Aussie from pioneer country the Blue Mountains etc etc. David Thompson has complained about people commenting on anonymous names please do not push this pretence further.
Truth is all in Spiritualism
To Billy whoever you are I do not need to justify myself to you to give my opinion on here however for your information I have sat with many PMs in public dems. and in some of their homes groups in including Mr Thompson. I was in the NAS for a short time just before it closed and sat in other groups connected with it. I have been tested and have had my brain wave’s monitored while in trance and it is well documented. I and others put our credibility on the line and we were not found wanting. You post under an alias you know who I am however it is easy for you to cock a snoop at me with no redress.
JJ McArthur
“In our fast-moving twenty-first century, with its numerous distractions, there are fewer people prepared to sacrifice their time to develop such phenomena.”
Roy, I have just finished reading your commentary…
Firstly, for those who are unfamiliar with Mediumship, in particular Physical Mediumship, iust a brief intro…
The role of the Medium is to facilitate communication with spirits who have messages to share with non-Mediums. A Medium is able to become completely receptive to the higher frequency or energies on which spirit people vibrate. The objective of a Medium’s work is to provide proof of survival of the human personality beyond the physical state we call death.
In the case of David Thompson, “Physical Mediumship” (manipulation of energies and energy systems by spirits), is made possible only when the Medium, with the help of the “sitters” energy, is able to raise his or her vibration enough to be able to communicate with Spirit.
Ectoplasm is produced by the Physical Medium when in a trance state. This material is excreted as a gauze-like substance from orifices on the Medium’s body and Spiritual Entities are said to drape this substance over their non-physical body, enabling them to interact in our physical universe. It is also claimed that ANY type of light source, or unauthorised contact with the ectoplasm produced during the séance, can be extremely harmful to the Medium, possibly resulting in death. Hence, Physical Mediums have to be very careful when demonstrating. This is why precautions have to be taken, some of which may sound extreme, but are necessary for the protection of the Medium.
Singing at the beginning and during the séance certainly helps to raise the vibration in the room. Non-believers and “sceptics” can lower the vibration. Spirit, in order to communicate through the Medium, must be able to lower their personal vibration. However, this takes practice. Hence some Spirits who come through are “weak” and may sound nothing like who they say they are, while others, like Quentin Crisp or Louis Armstrong, who are “regular” visitors sound “strong” and clear and confident.
Earlier this year, I accepted an invitation to attend a Physical séance hosted by David Thompson, held at his home in Sydney, Australia.
For those who have never had the pleasure, let me firstly say that David Thompson is probably the most un-assuming gentleman I have ever met. In my opinion, both he, and his partner Christine Morgan, are down-to-earth ordinary people with a fantastic gift. As practicing Mediums, they have, for many years, been bringing through irrefuteable proof of the survival of the human personality beyond physical death to countless individuals here in Australia and around the world. The healing and closure they both have provided over the years has been, and still is, an extraordinary testament to their amazing ability to communicate with Spirit through Mental Mediumship and, in the case of David Thompson, Physical Mediumship.
Thus, it makes me sad to read a commentary, such as that written by you Roy, which, although not coming out and stating categorically that the séance you attended was somehow “faked”, did leave the reader with the impression that David Thompson is no more than a charlatan.
Let me say this.. try telling that to the elderly lady who sat next to me in that séance I attended, who not only received a terrific message from her husband in Spirit (in his own voice, which she recognised), but also was hugged and kissed on the cheek by him. Try telling that to the young girl who received healing by way of a message from her boyfriend who had passed a few years earlier.. a message that meant so much to her that she was so convinced, when I talked to her afterwards, that her boyfriend was right there with her one more time…
And there were others that night, including myself, who were able to touch and speak with dear departed friends and relatives.
Never mind the other extraordinary phenomena that went on throughout the evening.. which left all of us amazed, by the way, just understand that the role of the Medium, as I pointed out earlier, is to facilitate communication with spirits who have messages to share with non-Mediums. I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that messages were communicated to various people in attendance that night. There was absolutely no way, in my opinion, that anything ignominious was taking place.
Please understand Roy, I am right there with you when unscrupulous people are uncovered and exposed. However, unless you have “absolute proof” that the séance you attended was indeed “faked”, then there is really no need for you, or anyone else, for that matter, to dispel the joy and hope that this elderly lady, or that young girl, felt on being able to communicate one more time with their loved ones. That’s what it’s all about. That’s the bottom line. Let them find hope in the message they received that night. I just wish that neither of them ever gets to read your commentary… why would you ever want to destroy that hope that they now have?
Yes, that night the “famous” Spirit entities did come through.. Quentin Crisp who did carry on cheerful banter with sitters, and Louis Armstrong, singing “Wonderful World”, which, at the time I thought was rather strange. However, in retrospect, I realise that the real reason for the appearance of these “famous” entities was probably more for the benefit and entertainment of those who, unlike myself, were not able to receive a personal message from a loved one in Spirit.
As an example, to clarify this, a couple of years ago I attended a demonstration by Lisa Williams, here in Canberra. There were around six hundred people in attendance and you can bet that each and every one of them (including myself) was wishing and hoping for a personal message from a loved one. Of course, only a few lucky ones actually received a communication. During the David Thompson séance, bringing through entities who were somewhat familiar to the sitters, in this case, allowed everyone to feel that they were a part of the séance and not left out.. unlike the other five hundred and ninety people, who mostly felt somewhat let down at the Lisa Williams demonstration, when the message that they were sitting waiting for unfortunately never came.
Roy, I am so sorry that you did not experience the true joy and love that all of us felt that night after attending that séance in Sydney. Maybe, at the end of the séance you attended, you felt a bit like the other five hundred and ninety people at the Lisa Williams demonstration.. a bit let down because the only personal communication you received that was from someone that barely knew you. Even then you questioned it’s authenticity.
Fact is Roy, you were lucky to receive any sort of message at all, as Spirit, according to what I have thankfully learned since attending the Lisa Williams demonstration, will come through to those who need the message most at that time. It is not something that is controlled by the Medium. It is certainly not something that will “just happen” because we expect it to. We just have to accept that and respect that that is “just the way it is”.
One day, in the not too distant future, David Thompson will probably be demonstrating Physical Mediumship under floodlights at Wembley Stadium in London. No doubt you will be there to witness it Roy. With respect, I only hope, for everyone’s sake that you get a front row seat AND a personal communication which will leave you speechless.
Lastly, again in my opinion, David Thompson should be applauded, not ridiculed, for being one of the few who have truly sacrificed their time and fully dedicated their lives to Spirit.
Love to all..
Billy Stewart
September 2011
BTW.. for those reading this, my opening quote was from none other than Mr. Roy Stemman himself… commenting on the fact why these days we don’t have much of the dynamic phenomena of a century ago..
Hi Denzil,
As you are aware of my sensitivity I couldn’t give a hoot about Khan’s gruff manner it was the sheer nonsense and money grabbing fiasco that annoyed me. Irene Sowter had the same manner as Khan on many occasions, and didin’t charge. I had a scan showing a lump of skin that could not be removed, without an operation. in my ear after seeing Irene and then having the scan again the lump was shrunk and able to be moved simply with tweezers throught the ear canal. The ear nose and throat specialist was at a loss to work out how this had happened. I was very happy witht the result hence my support for healers when the work is carried out with sensitivity and consideration to the client/patient.
warm regards
Hi Paul…I see where you’re coming from now…that was pretty much the same impression I had of his set up when Kay and I took a lovely lady called Flo, who had Parkinsons Disease, on a 4 hour round trip to see him for healing around 20 years ago…not including the hour’s wait staring at posters of Sai Baba…30 seconds to fill out a postcard size patients notes…£20.00 handed over to get in to the healing room… 3-4 minutes on the table…and not even a thank you as we walked out of the centre. Hopes soon dashed at it made not the slightest bit of difference to Flo’s condition.
Warm Regards
Dear Mr Jock Mc Carthur
In response to your posting with somewhat scant erroneous information, I would like to set the record straight.
First of all, in fairness for people to get the whole picture, they should know that you are a member and regular contributor on another website that takes great delight in writing untruths about my medumship at any given opportunity, the said website by its contents has displayed anti physical mediumship views on many occasions and has been a platform for a few people I mentioned before in my last post to make personal attacks against me, again with only information that suits their agenda, the said website currently boasts a total combined membership to date of 275.
The purpose of me posting the facts was to clearly display the inconsistencies in Mr Stemman`s unbalanced article.
Jock wrote “It attacks Mr Stemman`s article in an erroneous way and does not allow for the fact the writer gave two reports or views then gave the reader the opportunity to decide and many people chose the sceptics view”
Please would you be kind enough to share with me and the readers of ‘Spirit of PN’ where you collected your data from, to come to the conclusion that “many people chose the sceptics view” I personally would find it very interesting.
Jock wrote “The healing issue has not been addressed and it is upsetting to see people in denial of it”
On the contrary, the reason we decided to remove it from our website, is ONLY that we realized the controversy such information could generate if only part of it was seized upon by the few people who administer to the other website you frequent. The truth is there was a discussion with William in 2007 “That there was research being conducted in the USA about how possibly aspirin can help AIDS, the discussion also mentioned about possibly a connection between HIV and Downs Syndrome, at no time did he mention that aspirin was or could be a cure for AIDS or any other medical condition. Please note there was a disclaimer on our previous website that stated “People should make up their own minds and NOT take or substitute any information on the website for sound medical advice from their doctor” a principle we still hold to and has not changed in anyway.
Jock wrote “For you information some people were exposed at Stansted. One had the flowers hidden in the back of his stereo and another one was exposed by Mike Scott (an astrophysicist) who had set up an infra-red camera in the radiator in the Blue Room at Stansted where a physical séance was taking place. A few patrons sat in the bar and watched it on a monitor. The medium was caught on camera getting out of his seat a number of times. He disappeared off the scene pretty quickly after that exposure”
How very sad you don’t know the truth! The physical medium you speak of was Chay Blackshaw, who from my recent investigation was a true physical medium, and is on record for being a reputable physical medium. Chay`s only fault to my understanding was that during that demonstration you mention he was not restrained into the chair, and as anyone with any understanding of deep trance will affirm that when a medium is in a deep altered state of trance, the mediums auto nervous system is often stimulated and can be used like a puppet inadvertently by the spirit controls.
The sad end to the above story was that Chay took his own life after much ridicule, rather than live with the thought of what others may think of him and his mediumship.
The above paragraph clearly shows a sad end to another physical medium, persecuted by people who profess to know more than the spirit world, how many physical mediums will be negatively impacted by the words of people who have little or no understanding of the mechanisms of physical mediumship? The list of past physical mediums is endless who had suffered at the hands of many and who were later to be championed by all as being a genuine medium.
Will light in the séance room be the answer? I think not, there will just be another excuse rolled out by the sceptics as to how it was done! On the subject of light in the séance room, we take only the advice of our spirit team, not from the scientist or sceptics that only want ‘Their’ needs to be met, so if it takes 5 years, 10 years or 20 years, then so be it, I will not succumb to the pressure from scientist or sceptics to damage what we are trying to do by meeting ‘Their’ needs.
On a last and final note, people can think what they want about me and my mediumship that is there prerogative, but I will not stand back and take personal attacks by people who have their own agenda, and I will not enter into petty debate to justify myself to people.
David Thompson
Well Mr Thompson this is your answer almost every time is to refuse to answer any questions and to hide behind a tirade of words written by others in my opinion. There is a poll on this site readers can see for themselves the pros and cons and make up their own minds the same as Mr Stenmans article. As to another site you mentioned you have an issue with it is not for me to comment that is for the hosts to do so. The healing or lack of it is what concerns me and the least you can do is try to redress the situation.
JJ McArthur
Hello folks the last tme I looked there was 8 people who liked my recent post and there were 4 who did not. To the nice people who did not, could you give your reasons why not and if you have( the balls, oh sorry) the moral fibre, please add your name. I stand up for my beliefs and am proud to do so .
David
I too know what it is like to be on the receiving end of a lengthy blog that is full of inaccuracies, untruths and assumptions which are incorrect. It is very easy to ‘rubbish’ anything in life but very difficult to prove quality, commitment and the best of intentions. This is true about virtually any subject that cannot be proven by a mathmatical calculation and which is reliant on observation and common sense. I made a contribution to this blog earlier and still haven’t seen anybody explain the points I made then. The longer some of these criticisms are made the more ridiculous they are becoming; some sort of hysteria seems to grip a few of the respondents no matter what replies are forthcoming. I have no axe to grind here. I have only ever attended one materialisation seance at the Doris Ann Centre. I have no idea how it was done but it happened and as I stated earlier the mind cannot accept it as we are so rational in these times. However that doesn’t mean it wasn’t real or true. There are lots of events in this world that defy an explanation with the science that we have. Quantum physics is demonstating that.
I do not think you need to say anything more David, as some of these hurtful assertions will just continue to run as it is in the character of some involved. They are in fact a very small number. I suspect the motivation is distrust as they cannot produce the phenomena themselves so a talented individual who does becomes a target and fair game. We see this across the spectrum of our media driven society. Sadly this distrust is also of the Spirit World too.
Stick at it and do what you believe is right. The truth always wins out in the end.
David Thompson’s responses to my original Blog distort some of my observations and are also inaccurate in many instances. I’ve just posted my replies and corrections at http://www.paranormalreview.com/articles/20110908
Roy Stemman
I think you have missed the point Roy..
As David tried to explain in his earlier comments, he is guided by Spirit when he prepares for a physical séance. “We take only the advice of our spirit team, not from the scientist or sceptics that only want ‘Their’ needs to be met”.
Of course Roy, we would all love to stand there face to face, look them in the eye, and have a good old chat with our friends and families who have passed but it is not going to happen, at least not just yet…
It is not up to David Thompson or any other Medium to set the conditions for each individual séance.
So, you can ask for red light or weighted chairs or anything else that you can conjure up until you are blue in the face… BUT, in the end, it is simply the decision of Spirit.
If you truly understood, totally believed in and respected Spirit, then you would stop this petty bickering.
Just let David Thompson get on with his amazing work.
Enough is enough.. give it a rest now.
Whatever happened to “innocent until proven guilty”?
I do not understand why certain people seem to find need to assassinate the characters of others on this forum, simply because they have differing points of view. It seems to me that those who have applied a balanced logic to these arguments have been shot down in flames simply because they are holding out for truth. I agree with those on here who say that there is absolutely no evidence of survival in physical demonstrations unless the materialisations can be seen in some sort of light. That is surely common sense. To imply from this that people with such views have an axe to grind, or are judging unfairly or rubbishing other people’s views is a gross distortion in itself.
It has been said, time and time again, that in order for Spiritualism to be taken seriously, and to stop it from being the subject of ridicule, the very highest of standards MUST be employed when evidencing survival. This is not open to argument. We don’t want to be perceived as a laughing stock.
Therefore it follows that we MUST be permitted to voice our opinions, or concerns, in an open, un-biased and adult way which, as far as I can see, is what was happening on this forum up until a day or so ago. If someone should find they disagree with another’s point of view, is it really necessary to distort and twist the truth of what has been said in order to score points? Surely that is the kind of behaviour we expect of children when they find they are losing an argument?
I think Roy’s original article, on his home site, was extremely well-balanced and not at all biased against David Thompson. He gave both sides of the argument, both from a sceptic’s and non-believer’s point of view. But he is permitted to choose a side, and give his own opinions, because, after all, we are a free, democratic country. I hope that, if one day I am lucky enough to go to a physical demonstration, and, once it has finished, choose to err on the side of scepticism, I will not be vilified for this.
There is only one issue here that is important. Evidencing survival. As an organisation, we don’t need side shows and second rate or third rate mediums, we urgently need mediums of the calibre of Alec Harris and Leslie Flint, about both of whom I have never seen a single bad word written, such was the quality of their survival evidence, through both the direct voice and materialisations.
It is well known that I am a supporter of physical mediumship, and a number of readers have therefore written to ask why I have not made any comment on David Thompson’s mediumship. The answer is that I have never sat with him, and I am not in a position to offer any informed comment on the work of a medium with whom I have not sat. Sue
Dear Sue.
This is becoming very interesting article,I just wonder if this article from below my help in any way,
http://www.montaguekeen.com/page4.html
Kindest Regards
Tom
Hi Tom,
I do not think it helps very much and it is more than a little worrying if this is the thoughts of the Spirit of Montague Keen.
So the forces of light interlinked are David Icke and David Thompson . In opposition the dark mind control exercise powers to as I quote
“use those who are on a very low vibration to criticise, vilify and put down as false, those who are in tune with Spirit, such as David Thompson (medium) and David Icke, who work towards the awakening and enlightenment of Man”
I think in many ways this is the worst attack upon the many Spiritual People on here who are merely seeking answers and raising totally valid questions. It is hard to take on any of this “channelled” piece ostensibly from the Spirit of Montague Keen which rambles into the world of 2012 and the more wild predictions about it.
I am sure that not one of those who have raised issues including Roy Stemman are puppets of the “The Dark Cabal”. Knowing most of the posters on this thread they represent people with a very high commitment to Modern Spiritualism. I am shocked and horrified to read this material and see it posted by the Montague Keen Foundation.
Jim
I agree wholeheartedly. Spirit is not jealous and vengeful, unlike the Christian God of the Old Testament. Spirit will not seek to vilify those who express a healthy interest in seeking the truth. Spirit only ever acts out of love, and does not utter, or think, negative thoughts about anyone or any thing.
So now we have a situation whereby anyone who questions a medium, in the search for the truth, is either a low spirit, or a puppet of the ‘Dark Cabal’ (what on earth is that?). For sure such spurious messages do not come from the world of Spirit with which I identify, containing as they do false accusations, personal attacks, and condescending language, none of which Spirit, to my mind, would even consider lowering itself to engage in.
Do you, or does anyone else, know the source of these dubious and rather dire prognostications?
I welcomed David Thompson’s response to my report on one of his seances and published it in full on my website, together with some corrections and comments that were necessary, as his responses misrepresent some of the observations I made. I asked that he published those corrections on his website. And I also posed the following seven questions, which I hoped he would answer:
1. Is it the goal of yourself or your spirit helpers to ultimately produce materialisations or other physical phenomena in a red light?
2. If so, when do you expect that to happen?
3. In the meantime, is it sensible to continue to demonstrate in total darkness, leaving some participants (as evidenced from responses to my Blog) unconvinced by the results?
4. Are your spirit helpers striving to provide more personal survival evidence in the future and less show business entertainment from the likes of Quentin Crisp and Louis Armstrong?
5. Can your main spirit helper, William, explain why the materialised Gordon Higginson was unaware that his good friend Heather Hatton had passed over to spirit a year earlier when he communicated in Australia?
6. Have your spirit helpers been asked about the introduction of night vision goggles or infra-red light to view and even film the materialised entities?
7. Instead of being tied up during a séance, would you agree to being tested by SPR researchers using simple weighing devices that would monitor not only your presence in a chair throughout the séance proceedings, but also the independent existence (by weight) of any spirits that materialised? Such a method would be totally unobtrusive as far as light is concerned, if total darkness continues to be a necessary condition of your mediumship.
I am sorry to report that David Thompson has refused to include my comments on his website, or to answer the questions posed.
Dear Mr Jock McCarthur
You wrote: “The healing or lack of it is what concerns me and the least you can do is try to redress the situation.”
If you had read my ealier reply to you, you would have seen that I had done so, obviously you are only seeing what suits you.
When I did A Level Psychology back in 1999, of which a componant was Mathmatical Stats, there was no mention of a few people doing a thumbs up/down on a website would constitute verifyable data, so please again state where you gained your data to state as you did “many people chose the sceptics view as it is their right to do so “?
Its very sad that you seem more interested in who likes or dilikes your postings and made no mention about the poor man who took his own life! I think that says it all really, when a person can over took the fact that another human being took thier own life.
Please feel free to take onboard that I am not answerable to you and never will be, and people will judge for themselves by either attending or not attending our seances.
I now choose to not engage in useless banter with you any longer, create in your mind whatever opinion you wish of me, it is of no consequence to me.
Good luck with your future spiritual development, I sincerely hope you find what you are striving for in the future.
Best Regards
David Thompson
————————————————————————————————–
Dear Mr Stemman
You are quiet correct, I have chosen not to answer your questions, why should I? I am only answerable to the spirit world, not you or any other person.
I choose not to engage with you any longer to promote your website or your forthcoming ventures.
Please feel free along with your few cohorts to slap each other on the back and believe that you have made a contribution to a subject you only have limited knowledge about.
Along with your cohorts please hear this:
“I AM NOT IN THIS LIFE TO LIVE UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS OR TO MEET YOUR NEEDS”
Best Regards
David Thompson
David is quite right. He is not in this life to live up to our expectations or meet our needs – but then again, who amongst us actually ever suggested he was?
When he states, however, he is “only answerable to the spirit world” and not to Roy Stemman or any other person, I fear, he has failed to comprehend the very real nature of his earthly responsibilities as a person and as a medium towards those who attend his seances expecting to experience, and see, materialisation mediumship. Nor can he excuse himself from responsibility for remarks made by his spirit control ‘doctor’ who when ‘entrancing’ David, has made incorrect, even false claims, about his capacity to cure, to remove, to alleviate, the conditions people are suffering from.
As for people having only limited knowledge about the subject of physical mediumship, it appears to me that David Thompson thinks that anyone who questions or comments on his mediumship, other than in the most glowing and complimentary terms, is of necessity ignorant (un-spiritual, anti-physical mediumship, etc, etc). Some might consider that an interesting, if somewhat egotistical opinion on his part. Nevertheless, I thank David for joining the debate, however brief that interaction has been. It’s a pity, he could not find it in his heart to actually address the issues that have been raised.
In an earlier post Jock made reference to an incident where a scientist hid an infra-red camera in the room where a physical séance was to take place and the medium was caught on camera getting out of his seat a number of times.
Setting aside the ethical issues of the situation, and whether what the scientist did was inappropriate or not for another time, it is worth examining the comment made by Denzel about this incident and to compare it with that made by David Thompson.
Denzel wrote:
“what this so called man of science pulled off was wholly unforgiveable…luckily for him the medium in this instance was fraudulent…but just stop for one minute and consider the consequences had the medium been genuine. Talk about the curse of ignorance…”
David Thompson on the other hand wrote in response to Jock:
“How very sad you don’t know the truth! The physical medium you speak of was Chay Blackshaw, who from my recent investigation was a true physical medium, and is on record for being a reputable physical medium. Chay`s only fault to my understanding was that during that demonstration you mention he was not restrained into the chair, and as anyone with any understanding of deep trance will affirm that when a medium is in a deep altered state of trance, the mediums auto nervous system is often stimulated and can be used like a puppet inadvertently by the spirit controls.”
Denzel’s remarks are clearly predicated on the belief that infra-red cameras are intrinsically dangerous to the medium, and although he hasn’t stated it specifically, one presumes he means that infra-red cameras can ‘hurt’ the ectoplasm produced by the medium in physical séances and hence cause harm to a genuine medium.
In the example given by Jock, it appears that on that occasion at least, the medium was not genuine, as he was observed getting out of his seat a number of times. One must reasonably also presume that the purpose for moving out of his seat was to facilitate the production of the apparent phenomena occurring during the séance.
David, however, has a very different take on the situation. According to him this person he names was a genuine medium whose only fault was that he was not restrained during the demonstration. Apparently restraints would have prevented the medium from having his “auto nervous system” stimulated and being turned “inadvertently” into a puppet of the spirit controls.
David’s viewpoint raises some interesting issues.
First, if the medium was genuine, and the reason he moved out of his chair a number of times could be accounted for by the spirit controls manipulating the medium “like a puppet” because they had stimulated his “auto nervous system” what exactly might have been the purpose of those “spirit controls” for doing so?
Was it to falsely create the appearance of spirit materialisation, or spirit produced- phenomena in the darkened séance room? If that is the case, then one must seriously question the nature and intent, and level of development of those ‘spirit controls,’ as their actions appear significantly less than credit worthy and honest.
Was it to demonstrate (without anyone apparently knowing it was being demonstrated) that spirit can control the body and movements of an entranced medium? It this is the case, then the effort of the spirit controls would have been entirely wasted had the infra-red camera not recorded it for others to observe.
Second, if we rely on David’s explanation, it would appear that a ‘genuine’ medium, in deep trance, controlled in a puppet-like manner was happily quite impervious to the alleged dangers of infra-red radiation. On the other hand, however, a genuine medium, restrained in a chair and in deep trance, but not controlled like a puppet, is apparently at grave risk to his health and well-being from the effects of infra-red cameras?
Perhaps, a more accurate explanation is that the apparent dangers of infra-red, light or any other form of light is only dangerous to the medium if the medium believes it is. This is a point that Eric Hatton brought to peoples attention in his recent biography.
Hello Lis,
My response to Jock’s posting was brought about purely because of the arrogant and deceiptful nature of the scientists who, without knowing the facts, just went ahead and “Did It Anyway”. They really do not know, nor do any of us, whether rays emitting constantly from low lux or night vision viewing equipment may be detrimental to the ectoplasm or indeed the health of the medium…but they went ahead and did it anyway!!
The situation is, that at this moment in time, David’s mediumship has to be conducted in blacked out conditions (we all have a choice to attend his experimental seances or not) and his spirit team will not allow ray emitting viewing aids to be used…I for one am happy to accept this requirement on the same basis that my uncle, Jack Webber, held his seances in blacked out rooms also. Yes several infra red photographs were taken during specially arranged home circles and at one or two trusted venues…but two or three infra red photographs, taking split seconds to expose, compared to the proposal of scientists using low lux cameras for the duration of a sitting, I’m sure you will agree, does not quite match up. Unfortunately Jack Webber passed within 18 months of being brought down to London by Harry Edwards…it was at this time that “Experimentation” with infra red photography, with the explicit “agreement” and under full instruction from his Spirit team, began. If we are to denegrate David’s mediumship on this particular issue because his spirit team currently advise against it then we would also have to denegrate every other group and medium having sat for physical phenomena during the last 15 years or so, including Stewart Alexander, who along with Colin Fry during the NAS days, refused to allow this type of recording equipment into their seances…also Robin and Sandra Foy who, during the Scole experiments, used blank films either in a polaroid camera or no camera at all and would certainly not consider the use of low lux equipment without full agreement and guidance from their Spirit team.
On a lesser note can I just point out how easy it is for a person, even though they have perhaps viewed the same thing on several occasions, to mistake what they have seen and transform it into something else…for them, this then becomes their truth…this could be also possibly be applied to attending a physical phenomena seance. Lis…my name is NOT Denzel 😉
Wram Regards
Denzil
Please accept my apology Denzil.
A third issue that comes to mind is the alleged capacity of spirit controls to stimulate a medium’s “auto nervous system.” By “auto nervous system” I am assuming that David actually is referring to the human body’s autonomic nervous system.
My understanding of the Autonomic Nervous System is that it is responsible for controlling several body responses which are under the conscious level and which are mostly involuntary, like breathing, digestion, sexual arousal, beating of the heart, and many other biochemical processes. There are two distinguishable divisions to the Autonomic Nervous System: the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous systems.
In simple terms the parasympathetic nervous system when “stimulated” results in constriction of the pupils, increased salivation, inhibition of the heart beat, constriction of the bronchi in the lungs, stimulation of digestive and gall bladder activity, contraction of the bladder and relaxation of the rectum. Sensory stimulation (from whatever source) of the sympathetic nervous system has the opposite effect, eg., it results in dilation of the pupils, inhibition of salivation, accelerates the heart, and so on.
The Autonomic Nervous System, together with the hormones epinephrine and norepinephrine, is responsible for what is generally called the “Flight or Fight” response. Certainly in a conscious person confronted with an urgent, threatening or disturbing situation they may either fight or run away. In the former response it is the Sympathetic Nervous System that responds and the increase in energy brought about by the elevation of glucose in the bloodstream, plus the increased respiration and pulse rate, undoubtedly can result in people able to do things which are impossible under normal circumstances.
There are some other bodily functions that the Autonomic Nervous System is also responsible for, however, to my knowledge none of these can result in causing a person, whether in a conscious or trance state to get up from a chair or walk around when there is NO flight or fight stimulation occurring.
Perhaps David Thompson has some greater knowledge of the biological, biochemical and physiological functions of the human body passed on to him by his spirit controls that would explain just how the Autonomic Nervous System could be stimulated by the spirit controls so as to cause the entranced medium to get out of the chair, walk around the room, and perform functions or activities in that room, which purport to be the actions of the spirit controls or ‘materialized’ spirit entities.
And, if it is actually possible for the ‘spirit controls’ to so entrance and make ‘puppet-like’ the actions of the medium, through stimulation of the autonomic nervous system, what explanation David has been given for why the spirit world would choose to do this, especially as such controlling of the medium in this manner must surely, if observed, result in the credibility of the medium being undermined or destroyed.
So just where are we on this Thompson debate?
Roy attended a seance and wrote two very reasonable pieces – sceptical and otherwise – and David objects to the sceptical one and replies at length.
But now when Roy points out perceived deficiencies – David writes: “I have chosen not to answer your questions, why should I? I am only answerable to the spirit world, not you or any other person.”
If David thinks this, then why did he reply to Roy in the first place?
One suspects, as in any verbal dispute where one proponent runs away, that David has no answers to Roy’s questions or the answers he has, would leave him disadvantaged.
Wading through the long thread above I have a few thoughts.
The first is that despite the demise of PN, how refreshing it is for people to have instant access to a debate – something not possible with a print version regardless of some of its advantages.
So well done those responsible for setting up this website!
Back to the DT question – it seems to me that if the posters are honest and accurate, we have a fair number of negative criticisms about the accuracy of his mediumship regarding messages and much doubt about the standard of his physical mediumship.
On the other hand a few folk have sung David’s praises including Ann Harrison who writes a glowing account of his work in Spain and a joyful reunion with her husband Tom.
So is it just possible that both sides are right?
Sometimes David produces credible phenomena and provides accurate survival evidence and sometimes the whole shebang is a pitiful circus?
There seem to be credible people speaking for both sides.
There’s no doubt in my mind that most, if not all of this argy bargy, could be cleared up by seances in light or the use of infra-red or heat seeking recording equipment.
But despite seance after seance, year after year of singalongs of Wonderful World, nobody seems able to debate the light issue properly with the spirits themselves.
Nobody organises a Spirit Forum – ‘Topic: Light in Seances: why was it once possible but is now impossible? We invite the spirit world to tell all!’
If as Ann inferred, it’s to do with electrical interference then let Spirit suggest seances down a coalmine or in the jungle!
Of course the Spirit Forum never happens because there seems to be this atmosphere of always deferring to Spirit – don’t ask anything challenging or you’ll spoil the vibrations and communication!
Even veteran researcher Roy Stemman seemed a victim of this ‘reverance’ by admitting he could have been more challenging when he felt something was wrong.
Frankly personally I don’t know where I am with this subject which seems similar to my other main mystery pursuit – that of UFOs.
The real confirmation always seems just that much removed – a kind of cosmic carrot that we the donkeys never quite get our teeth into.
One wonders whether there’s some block on total knowledge or whether the whole phenomenon is some creation of the human psyche – maybe we do literally ‘create our own reality’.
Even in the human-made crop circles the makers admit to strange phenomena and anomalies experienced – is this a result of some outside force or some consciousness effect of their desires, maybe the ritualistic circlemaking or even something to do with the ‘sacred’ shapes themselves?
So many questions…..
From my experiences at physical seances – even at David’s – I’m prepared to accept there is genuine phenomena but because of the light issue, it’s always open to doubt, so for now I’m still up here on the fence.
But meanwhile come on David – Roy’s a very reasonable bloke and a true supporter of genuine Spiritualism – answer his questions and show some real honesty!
Post Script.
Paul – re Stephen Turoff. I took a blind man to see him once. After a few swift hand movements over him, he told him to go home and put raspberry teabags over his eyes! Can you imagine my blind friend’s
disappointment?
Nevertheless he undertook the teabag treatment. He’s still blind.
We all know that no one becomes all knowing and all seeing upon entering the next mode of existence yet it appears that fallibility is being used by some people as a stick to beat David Thompson and his team. The team are obviously not in the Silver Birch, Seth or Ramtha league and no reasonable person would expect them to be. In terms of evolution David’s team must be considered babies in the spirit world so are bound to make mistakes. Nevertheless in view of their comparative inexperience they are probably punching above their weight.
The experimenter effect is well known and it has been found that it only takes one person, albeit unwitting, to have a negative effect on an experiment. I read of a case in America where they were, if my memory is correct, experimenting on the influence of emotion on human cells and every time a particular person was present the experiment failed. However they were puzzled when the experiment failed when the person was absent only to find that at the exact time of the failure the person in question was walking past the laboratory on his day off!
Then there is the case of a well known medium investigated by Charles Richet who was known to have produced both genuine and bogus phenomena. She even admitted that unless she was closely scrutinised she would cheat! Its been said that every attempt at mediumship is influenced in some way by the mind of the medium. Perhaps there is an inbuilt tendency for all mediums to give the phenomena a helping hand at times. I certainly know there was when I made a pathetic attempt at psychic reading during an open circle for beginners, till I realised what I was unconsciously doing and gave it up as a bad job.
The whole physical phenomena area is a minefield and I think everyone should remember that whenever a sitting is attempted it is an experiment and experiments do go wrong.
Nevertheless, I do hope that David and his team will in the not too distant future consider the use of night vision goggles as this is the only way that the media sceptics will be silenced.
In view of the high proportion of positive comments from experienced sitters about David and his team I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. It would be e tragedy if his ability was damaged by the erosion of his confidence due to continual hounding by people hostile to him.
Finally, I understand that Christine Morgan is his partner so she would be heavily involved in all David’s performances. Therefore do bear in mind that any allegations of deliberate fraud against David would also be questioning her integrity.
I wouldn’t be holding up the Ramtha cult as an example to aspire to, as parts of his “teachings” are just plain rambling nonsense, and no different from any other ascended master myth.
Wow Tom, If that is Montague Keen speaking then I am a Chinaman!
Since when has the moon not been part of nature?
Michael Roll
Hi Michael
I only posted some thing I read what a Spirit said about DT.
If that is not Montague Keen,then who pray is the Spirit sending messages every Sunday.Who is Veronica communicating with?
Tom
Actually Michael there has been a theory around for many years that the moon was once ferried here by ETs to give us a pleasant planet with seasons and the good life!
Read a great book called Who Built the Moon for more details of this fascinating idea.
With Monty’s alleged afterlife fixation with David Icke, it’s not surprising
to learn that the spaceship Moon idea is featured in Icke’s latest book.
Maybe they subscribe to Amazon on the other side?
To be charitable let’s agree that Veronica Keen must have somehow got a crossed line in the psychic phone exchange.
Monty, it most certainly ain’t!
Hi Tom; that is a very good question. I am not sure anyone, not even Spirit, can give you a good answer to the source of the material on the link you provided. It did look, just a little, that it was selected because it was so very strong in its attack upon the people who have been raising entirely valid questions of Mr Thompson. I think that it was, in all probability, not the best way to attack people who have brought forward real facts and information.
Jim
Tom, If that is indeed a message from the etheric wavelengths then it could be from people who were fighting with all their might against the secular scientific case for survival when they were on Earth. Against Crookes, Lodge and Arthur Findlay. Many would just carry on where they left off, pretending to be people like Montague Keen. Thankfully not making a very good job of it. “If I offend your reason or insult your intelligence then reject what I am saying.” Wise words from Silver Birch.
Michael Roll
I have dipped into the Montague Keene website from time to time over the past few months and must admit I have been concerned at some of the comments on there purporting to come from him in the afterlife. His regular comments are mostly of the tone related on the link previously given about the Dark Cabal.
I know the world appears to be run by big business like the oil, pharmaceutical banking and arms industries rather than the elected politicians but as for a conspiracy directed by a Dark Cabal…….Hang on though, the more I think about it, maybe there is something in it!!!
As for the moon. Its an intriguing puzzle because experts agree that its far too big compared with the earth. I much prefer the explanation given by Zechariah Sitchin in his book, The Twelfth Planet, where he translates the epic tale of the formation of our solar system from Sumerian clay tablets that predate the bible by many thousands of years, and from which the bible writers borrowed their stories of creation and confused them.
To cut a long story short our moon was created, so the story goes, by a collision or very near miss with another planet, Nibiru, that is on a huge orbit of thousands of years and will someday return to this system. In the distant past it knocked our planet down to a habitable size at the same time, moved it to its present position near to the sun, which enable life to develop, and also created the meteor belt.
Interestingly astronomers agree that our planet is too close to the sun to have retained all its water during its creation in its present position and they are theorising about a missing planet that could be on its way back to our system. A brown dwarf with a habitable moon in its influence would in fact fit the bill.
The story explains many of the stories in the bible in rational terms and also fills in the gaps in Darwinism, ie how homo sapiens, together with all his domesticated crops and animals suddenly appeared over night in evolutionary terms. Its now called Intervention Theory and involves flesh and blood ‘gods’ who today would be termed extra terrestrials. The flood for instance was a tsunami triggered by the magnetic pull of Nibiru nearing our planet towards the end of the ice age that drowned most of the known habitable world.
Have a read at http://www.lloydpye.com/essay_interventiontheory.htm To me it is a plausible story, and if the Starchild scull is verified as non human, as seems very likely, it will gain more credence. http://www.lloydpye.com/starchildskull.htm
There is enough here for another two threads at least.
Pedantic probably, but I thought a Brown Dwarf was a type of star, not a Planet.
A brown dwarf is a ‘failed’ star that does not have enough mass to become a full blown sun. It does nor burn as brightly as a regular star like our sun so would not show up on infrared telescopes which would be the only equipment to detect it at those distances. It would go undetected by us even though it would be on its return orbit. It could however burn with enough power to support life similar to ours on a satellite like a moon.
Presumably Victor Zammit was referring to this forum when he wrote in his otherwise excellent, and highly valued by me, Friday Afterlife Report last week:
“COMMENTARY: WHERE IS THE LOVE? I was recently asked to take part in an online forum where a number of people had been attacking a gifted medium. When I read what the few people there were saying I was absolutely shocked and horrified by the negative manipulation, by the hatred, by the anger, the lies, the unfairness and by the jealously – writings with no spirituality at all. It was awful!
I just could not believe how a moderator would allow people to gang up and make attacks on a spiritual medium especially when the attackers do not even have the decency, the honesty and the integrity to write under their own true names.
Decent, honest, truly spiritual people will immediately ignore such negative activity if they come across it – and will go to forums or afterlife reports which over time have shown to be spiritually uplifting, spiritually meaningful and immediately relevant to their lives. A place where all people are treated decently and in a positive way, with encouragement and respect. And where every endeavour is made to inspire, help, to enlighten, to give hope. ”
That is not how I see the comments, questions, facts and queries posted here at all. Reasonable doubts have been raised. Procedures have been suggested that would remove those doubts, but those suggestions have been ignored, or dismissed. That is worrying. I see no evidence in the posts above of “negative manipulation, hatred, anger, lies, unfairness and jealousy”, nor indeed of “writings with no spirituality at all”, simply a desire to toughen up the evidence. What possible rational objection could be raised, for example, to allowing thermal imaging technology into the seances of DT? It could not harm him or his production of ectoplasm in any way at all.
Victor Zammit’s weekly newsletter is admirable. It brings to light many paranormal phenomena and much paranormal, spiritualist, mediumistic and afterlife research and material that would otherwise be overlooked. It performs a wonderfully helpful service to all those fellow travellers writing here, and indeed to all humanity by drawing us to the true nature of reality and our spiritual destiny. I was saddened, therefore, at the insinuation of lack of decency, dishonesty, and lack of spirituality in most of those posting here. To claim that “decent, honest, truly spiritual people will immediately ignore such” a forum is tendentious, persuasive, manipulative reasoning. It is not the dispassionate, objective, scientific reasoning that Victor claims to follow.
Victor, you say in your youtube video, “David Thompson’s Materialisations”, that you are not into subjectivity, but into objectivity and scientific method, with repeatability and stringent controls, all of which you claim have been followed. If you are saying that you cannot have been mistaken, and that you cannot have overlooked a control that needs to be put in place before these seances, then you are being highly subjective. If you are saying that everyone else should be satisfied with the controls that have satisfied you, then you are being subjective, unscientific and unreasonable. If you cannot allow others their right to question, probe and ask for further controls without the imputation of dishonesty, and lack of decency and spirituality, then you are being scurrilous. In none of these ways are you advancing the cause that you have done so much to promote.
“Decent, honest, truly spiritual people will immediately ignore such negative activity if they come across it ”
Such negative activity as calling Stephen Hawking “silly”, telling him to “put up or shut up” and implying he is the greatest “coward-scientist” who ever lived? Hardly the words of someone trying to be objective or decent, especially when you contrast it with how everyone who Victor agrees with is described as “brilliant”.
If Victor wants to know where the love is, perhaps he should look in the mirror and ask himself the same question.
Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man, one of the truly inspirational scientists of our day. Although I disagree with some of his views on the possibility of an afterlife, I can still give credit where it is due to a remarkable man who has undergone so much physical suffering in this life. Why? Because I am OBJECTIVE. I believe in an afterlife, and Stephen Hawking doesn’t. So what is the big deal? We both have a choice. I won’t stoop to slagging him off and calling him names simply because he holds views different to my own. He is an amazing theoretical physicist, and I have nothing but admiration for him. Why do some people get so angry because others disagree with them?
Wes
If you had to put up with the attacks from professional sceptics that Victor has you would probably be as prickly as he is to criticism sometimes.
If I remember correctly Stephen Hawking insulted people who believed in an afterlife as having invented the concept because they were afraid of the dark. This is indeed a silly remark.
I got the impression that Victor was replying in the same vein. So often scientist of high regard, such as Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins, rely on their reputations in order to debunk psi without having studied the evidence.
Denzil Fairbairn makes the following point in relation to filming physical phenomena:
“The situation is, that at this moment in time, David’s mediumship has to be conducted in blacked out conditions and his spirit team will not allow ray emitting
viewing aids to be used.”
Sorry Denzil, but every object in the seance room emits infra red radiation in an amount proportional to their temperature. So infra red has ALWAYS been present in every seance room since the Fox Sisters. So why do the spirit team not allow the use of thermal imaging cameras??? Have they even been asked? A thermal imaging camera would merely capture the already existing radiation in the seance room and convert it into pictures. It is NOT a ‘ray emitting viewing aid.’
These tired old excuses as to why filming cannot take place just don’t add up. The spirit team do not have any problem producing phenomena in the presence of infra red light or the various other forms of electromagnetic radiation that exist in the seance room. Nor does the presence of sound recording equipment inhibit the production of ectoplasm.
I have always found it disconcerting that in spite of having the technology to finally lift the veil of darkness from the seance room and greatly reduce the ability of a fraudulent medium to hoodwink the public, we are constantly met with vague excuses and perplexing obstructions as to why it can’t be done.
Well said Simon! So eloquently put and just what I was thinking, but obviously don’t have your gift with words! (and, for the record, I AM posting under my own name, as are most people on this site – but who is Louisa, who is apparently posting under the name ‘Lily’ on another site?)
The reason why I, and presumably others, post under our first names in a SPIRITUALIST online publication should be obvious to anyone who has even the slightest interest or knowledge of mediumship.
To post our full names would enable anyone, including any unscrupulous mediums out there, to do a quick search in Google, and find a whole lot of information about us (this especially applies to anyone with a forename or surname which is unusual, or foreign, which both mine are).
THIS WOULD LIMIT SIGNIFICANTLY THE EVIDENCE I COULD ACCEPT FROM ANY MEDIUM GIVING ME A READING IN THE FUTURE.
This is a Spiritualist publication and many mediums will visit this site.
We all have an online fingerprint, which we must safeguard as much as we can in order to enable us to receive, and accept, genuine communications from Spirit.
Many genuine mediums today, a couple of whom I have personally had readings with, do not require even a person’s name before they do a reading, let alone sight of their driver’s licence, council tax bill, library card etc. but precautions must be taken to guarantee, as far as possible, the quality of the evidence coming from all mediums. QUALITY survival evidence is what this shebang is all about. Nothing else.
Vanda
As we are being picky on here in relation to David Thompson, let me play devils advocate. Surely anything that is in the public domain can only ever be treated as secondary when it comes to evidential information. Only the private and confidential information that could not be in the public domain, such as private conversations, could ever be regarded as first class information. That’s the reason mediums tend to give information that would be regarded as irrelevant and mind numbingly mundane to anyone else.
When I had a reading from Val Hood she gave information that she would have had to have got from a fly on the wall in our house when I was talking to my late wife when we were alone. That’s what I call first class conclusive information.
Actually this is one of the few forums where I do not use a pseudonym or just a first name because this is one of the few places I expect people to behave with integrity.
Hello Simon (not sure which Simon you are?)…unfortunately it would appear that you have taken a small extract of my posting out of context…if you view the whole of my posting on the subject you may gain a better idea of my view point. Don’t think for one moment that I wouldn’t love to see beyond the darkness of a seance room as well but unfortunately it doesn’t matter how much any of us protest in this matter the fact is that neither you, nor anybody else on this earth plane, knows for certain whether low lux or thermal imaging viewing equipment can cause harm within a seance room. However, if you or anyone else you know has actually carried out experimentation, with this sort of equipment, in a Physical Phenomena Seance and you are prepared to share your results then I’m sure this will give Physical Mediums and their groups all over the world the confidence to argue the case with their Spirit teams in an effort to gain permission to make films of what goes on in the dark.
Should that ever happen I can virtually guarantee the skeptics will still find something to complain about….”is it faked?”, “surely that can’t be correct it doesn’t comply with my way of thinking!!” or some similar remark.
So why not let’s just be patient and wait for the next sufficiently developed materialisation medium (of which there have only ever been a very few) to come along and demonstrate in a lighted seance conditions…who knows in 3, 5 or 10 years time it may be David Thompson and hopefully we will still all be around to enjoy seeing it for ourselves.
One other alternative of course would be for you to start your own development group Simon in which case I’m sure your spirit team would be more than happy to accomodate your demands.
Regards
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
I’m the Simon who used to be in Stewart Alexander’s home circle and had permission from the guides to install an infra red video camera in his seance room! :0)
But let’s not go down that well worn path again…
You claim that I took a statement of yours out of context. I don’t believe that was the case at all. You made your position very clear as regards the excuse given as to why David Thompson’s cannot be filmed. I merely highlighted that the reason you gave is flawed: Thermal imaging cameras do NOT emit any more infra red radiation than the sitters in the room do!
In your response, you state:
“… unfortunately it doesn’t matter how much any of us protest in this matter the fact is that neither you, nor anybody else on this earth plane, knows for certain whether low lux or thermal imaging viewing equipment can cause harm within a seance room.”
Again, I must respectfully point out that your reasoning is rebutted by the facts. David Thompson HAS been photographed by an infra red still camera, with no harm coming to either himself or to his ability to produce alleged ectoplasm .
So, the non filming apologists’ position is rather confused and muddled.
You proffer the claim that “David’s mediumship has to be conducted in blacked out conditions and his spirit team will not allow ray emitting viewing aids to be used” – while the facts prove otherwise!
The central issue is therefore this: If Thompson’s mediumship can withstand an unnaturally high amplitude of infra red radiation from a still camera, why can it not be video filmed by a thermal imaging camera that does not emit any more infra red than the sitters in the room?
There has been no satisfactory answer to this question, and I think it more than reasonable to be subsequently sceptical of the vague and innacurate excuses so far given by the non filming apologists. You may be quite happy to just go along with them and take them at face value instead of actually analysing the facts and seeking to ask searching questions of the spirit guides, but I and others do not share your approach.
We are all to aware of the history of physical mediumship and the fraud that has taken place throughout it’s existence. We must be ever vigilant against it’s practice. Unfortunately, the brick wall of prohibition against video filming has built nothing but an obstruction to physical mediumship’s credibility.
Denzil continues:
“However, if you or anyone else you know has actually carried out experimentation, with this sort of equipment, in a Physical Phenomena Seance and you are prepared to share your results then I’m sure this will give Physical Mediums and their groups all over the world the confidence to argue the case with their Spirit teams in an effort to gain permission to make films of what goes on in the dark.”
Over 20 years ago I was involved in an attempt to film physical phenomena. Did it “give Physical Mediums and their groups all over the world the confidence to argue the case with their Spirit teams in an effort to gain permission to make films of what goes on in the dark”? No. All I met with was a high degree of opposition!
Things haven’t changed in the intervening years.
Today, the Montcabirol Circle have video filmed alleged ectoplasmic formations. While they do not as yet show the whole room, including the medium and sitters, it is a start. Has this given Thompson and his circle the “confidence to argue the case” for filming? Apparently not…
Denzil continues:
“Should that ever happen [FILMING] I can virtually guarantee the skeptics will still find something to complain about….”is it faked?”, “surely that can’t be correct it doesn’t comply with my way of thinking!!” or some similar remark.”
This agrument by the apologists of non filming has always made me smile. Why are the sceptics’ opinion of a video film of a seance always brought up? Are their opinions any different to a sound recording of a seance? No. But spiritualist circles still record their sittings. So why should we be any more concerned about what the sceptics say about a video film than we already are about a sound recording?
The answer, of course, is that we shouldn’t. So I’m afraid this argument is completely redundant in regards to the filming issue.
WELL SAID! I agree with this point of view wholeheartedly!
Thank you Vanda.
I agree with Victor’s comments in his AfterLife Report last week about this website forum discussion. There has been a lot of distortion and unfair criticism of David Thompson. As I understand it neither William nor David ever suggested aspirin as a cure for AIDs or to prevent Downs Syndrome. William did mention research in USA into aspirin to aid HIV sufferers and also they were researching a possibly link between HIV and Downs Syndrome. As to the claim that both David out of trance and William when he was in trance advised ‘tying string around cancer to stop it spreading’ well that doesn’t even warrant comment – it would be a physical impossibility apart from being quite ridiculous.
As to false names being used, some are certainly not full names. What does ‘Mickey’ stand for – ‘Mickey Mouse’?
On the use of thermal imaging or night vision goggles and infra-red cameras, Spirit guides feel these can indeed affect the ectoplasm. However when a rarified and refined form of ectoplasm or an alternative energy source is used then this may well be possible. Occasionally David has been permitted to be seen in trance in red light for short periods, and ectoplasm has been seen forming and photographed.
In my opinion David is no different to other genuine physical mediums, most if not all of whom have faced similar accusations and smears. Many could only perform in darkness to achieve the best results and also for their own safety. However the hope is David will be able to perform more regularly in at least subdued red light as his mediumship develops. However when this is possible, and when and if night vision goggles/infra red cameras, etc. are permitted in the seance room is in the hands not of David or Christine, but David’s Spirit guides and controllers.
Hi Tony
In regard to your comment:
“As to false names being used, some are certainly not full names. What does ‘Mickey’ stand for – ‘Mickey Mouse’?”
Tony how rude; Mickey’s evidence is genuine; you may be shocked to find out who he is and how innapproriate your comments are. Please you and the others in support of David play the issue not the person . Your act is very unspiritual and unnecessary. If we disagree as Spiritualists we do not send the Bronx boys round to “sort them out” we handle it with rational debate.
To be completely honest the information I have gathered going back very many years suggests that this sort of innappropriate challenge is far to common. I would assume that you are not a Spiritualist as both David Thompson and Victor Zammit have expressly stated in post, emails and blogs. I think that is something i am grateful about given the approach that seems, sadly, to have become too common.
By the way Tony all of that re Aspirin, Aids and Downs is …well and truly on the record please do not try to deny what is written ad recorded it does nothing for your argument
Tony Papard stated:
“On the use of thermal imaging or night vision goggles and infra-red cameras, Spirit guides feel these can indeed affect the ectoplasm.”
Yes – we’ve heard this excuse over and over and over. It’s always trotted out like a broken record when the question of filming is brought up. However, as I’ve pointed out in my earlier post, every object in the seance room emits infra red radiation in an amount proportional to its temperature. So, you can’t have it both ways!
The medium and every sitter emit infra red radiation from their skin – yet the number of sitters (and therefore the amplitude of infra red) has no detrimental effect on the production of ectoplasm as has been shown at public demonstrations of physical mediumship where over a 100 sitters have been present!
So how could a thermal imaging camera – that produces LESS infra red radiation than the sitters in the room, “affect the ectoplasm”? How is it that sound recording equipment doesn’t “affect the ectoplasm”? How is it that radio waves don’t “affect the ectoplasm”? Or microwave radiation?
It is indeed strange that the only form of equipment capable of allowing the occurences of the seance room to be finally seen, is the very equipment that has some ‘unique’ properties detrimental to ectoplasm.
Forgive my sceptism, but I just don’t buy it.
Hi Simon,
Thanks for you comments…these are noted and have given me food for thought and I will continue to ask these questions, in seances, when the opportunities arise.
May I ask you to consider, however, the probablility that during the periods of development for PM which as you know can take many years, it could be determined that the Guides and Scientist working with these individuals acclimatise the energies/ectoplasm to the infra red emmitting from the human body etc of sitters, in the development circle, thus enabling them to gradually overcome that aspect. Hopefully, this proposition may provide an answer to your repeated consideration of:-
“Sorry Denzil, but every object in the seance room emits infra red radiation in an amount proportional to their temperature. So infra red has ALWAYS been present in every seance room since the Fox Sisters.”
Just as an example of this prospect of acclimatisation one could consider the snake charmers in Asia who subject themselves to gradually increasing amounts of snake venom in an effort to build up their resistance.
Blacked out seance rooms are, as I understand it, invariably opted for at the outset of Physical mediumship. It is deemed to provide a quicker route to development, even though it is still likely to take many years. However, if the mediumship is found to be strong enough by the Spirit team then I guess that is when they would encourage the introduction of some form of illumination…a red light for example or illumination created by the Scientists in Spirit…either of these formats are rarer than hens teeth and something I hope to eventually witness.
Simon then goes on to say:- “So why do the spirit team not allow the use of thermal imaging cameras??? Have they even been asked? A thermal imaging camera would merely capture the already existing radiation in the seance room and convert it into pictures. It is NOT a ‘ray emitting viewing aid.’”
This form of viewing equipment may well be acceptable Simon…I don’t know that anyone has ever actually asked for permission for it to be used. However, I’m not so sure that the end result would actually prove/achieve anything?…from what I’ve seen on television programmes, where this type of equipment has been used, the images produced are of undefinable white blobs…it would be interesting to see what would actually be produced in a room full of hot bodies…I imagine it would be impossible to even make out individual people let alone partially, or otherwise, materialised forms. This may provide the answer but I don’t think it will.
Warm Regards
Denzil
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
You state in reference to thermal imaging cameras, by which I must assume you actually mean thermograghic imaging cameras: “However, I’m not so sure that the end result would actually prove/achieve anything?…from what I’ve seen on television programmes, where this type of equipment has been used, the images produced are of undefinable white blobs…it would be interesting to see what would actually be produced in a room full of hot bodies…I imagine it would be impossible to even make out individual people let alone partially, or otherwise, materialised forms.”
Obviously I don’t know what television programmes you have watched, but I must say that I suspect, that there may be some confusion on your part about what it is you have seen that apparently results in “undefinable white blobs.” Thermography is a highly developed scientific technique and is used in some of the most complex areas including security, health, and food safety, quite apart from fields wherein the safety of the humans involved must be ensured. The imaging arising from that equipment does not result in undefined white blobs at all, so it seems you don’t yet quite understand the nature of the equipment.
Hi Denzil,
You write:
“May I ask you to consider, however, the probablility that during the periods of development for PM which as you know can take many years, it could be determined that the Guides and Scientist working with these individuals acclimatise the energies/ectoplasm to the infra red emmitting from the human body etc of sitters, in the development circle, thus enabling them to gradually overcome that aspect. Hopefully, this proposition may provide an answer to your repeated consideration of:-
“Sorry Denzil, but every object in the seance room emits infra red radiation in an amount proportional to their temperature. So infra red has ALWAYS been present in every seance room since the Fox Sisters.””
I’m not sure I follow your logic, Denzil. You were the person who claimed that:
“David’s mediumship has to be conducted in blacked out conditions and his spirit team will not allow ray emitting viewing aids to be used.”
If, as you now say – “Guides and Scientist working with these individuals acclimatise the energies/ectoplasm to the infra red emmitting from the human body etc of sitters” – then why does his spirit team “not allow ray emitting viewing aids to be used”? A thermal camera emits LESS infra red than the sitters do.
You now seem to be contradicting your earlier claim.
Lis has already addressed your claim that thermal images show people as nothing but ‘blobs’. This, is erroneous. A good quality thermal imaging camera will show quite detailed, clear results. Please take a look at an example:
Hi Simon,
Denzil wrote ““May I ask you to consider, however, the probablility that during the periods of development for PM which as you know can take many years, it could be determined that the Guides and Scientist working with these individuals acclimatise the energies/ectoplasm to the infra red emmitting from the human body etc of sitters, in the development circle, thus enabling them to gradually overcome that aspect. Hopefully, this proposition may provide an answer to your repeated consideration of:-
Simon replied “Sorry Denzil, but every object in the seance room emits infra red radiation in an amount proportional to their temperature. So infra red has ALWAYS been present in every seance room since the Fox Sisters.”
Simon, my apologies…in relating to the possible process by which ectoplasm may be made acclimatised to infra red rays by the Spirit workers/helpers, I should have written this to relate to all ray emitting items in the seance room (as you pointed out) and not just the sitters because, of course, all these items are in the room, from the start, during the development of the medium and must therefore be included in this theory. If one were to accept this theory then one would also have to accept that the odd photograph taken with infra red photographic equipment, as previously mentioned, can be more readilly tolerated as it occurs over a very short space of time in comparison to a filming process using the same ray source over a much, much longer duration.
Hi Lis…you wrote “You state in reference to thermal imaging cameras, by which I must assume you actually mean thermograghic imaging cameras”
Sorry Lis, it now appears you are adding yet another ray emitting process to this already over full pot. I was responding to Simon’s posting which clearly refers to Thermal Imaging…like the type used in Police Helicopters which help ground force staff to chase down criminals. We have several tv progs in th UK which show the usefulness of this equipment in seeking out hiding criminals but I have only ever seen white blobs on their screens providing no features or gender evidence. I haven’t got a clue how Thermography works…does it requires rays of some description to enhance the images?…but it would seem that the cost of this equipment, along with Simon’s “good quality” Thermal Imaging machine would be quite prohibitive…who do you suggest foots the bill for these??
Sincerely,
Denzil
Just a thought, but is it possible to remove the “thumbs down” option at the bottom of posts? It might help to allay accusations of bullying, negativity and hate campaigns if the only way to voice your disagreement was to put it in words, which if expressed respectfully and thoughtfully would be much more constructive than clicking on a downward pointing thumb.
Wes, thank you for your comment. I agree that the thumbs down (and up) are not helpful, but to the best of my knowledge there is no way to remove them from the site. We will take further advice on this and post again. Meanwhile, it would be wonderful if those who feel strongly enough to vote a particular comment up or down would consider sharing their views with other readers. All opinions are welcome here, and always will be. Sue
Richard, Vanda, Simon, thank you for your voices of reason, rationality, and the truth expressed in your posts. There are so many fundamental flaws in the logic, opinion, and arguments of so many of the recent posts that I hardly know where to begin to (politely) refute them. I will when I have time, but until then, I can only say thank goodness that there are some people posting on here who are not afraid to express their opinions, sanely, and with clear logic and evidence to support their position. As for the others, while I understand the passionate nature of your stance based on your belief in the mediumship of David Thompson, ultimately illogical arguments, and rudeness will never convince anyone that right is on your side.
As for Victor Zammit’s remarks quoted in one post, I feel obliged to remark, why on earth would anyone expect anything other than the offensive diatribe that is his method of attempting to negate whatever he does not agree with, or which appears to threaten his expressed position. If we are to believe Mr Zammit, anyone who doesn’t agree with him or support the medium he has championed, is of necessity anti-physical mediumship, manipulative, dirty, filled with hatred, anger, jealousy, and of course intrinsically un-spiritual, not to mention having no decency or honesty.
This would suggest that there are many (not a few as he claims) who are dedicated Spiritualists, mediums, and long-term supporters of mediumship (physical and mental) who have apparently, suddenly and inexplicably, become horrible people, despite the fact they continue in all other areas of their life to be committed to Proof of Survival Spiritualism.
No Mr Zammit: – No one on this site has “ganged up” on anyone – including David Thompson – And as you well know I have the decency, the honesty and the integrity to write under my own true name – just like the majority of people on this site – though there are I admit one or two Thompson supporters that don’t seem to have quite caught on to the need for the level of integrity you demand.
If only there was a thumbs up, thumbs down option at some physical seances, some mediums and maybe Spirit, might get the message that many of the punters aren’t happy and changes need to be made!
If you agree, click on the thumbs up!
If not – hit thumbs down and I promise not to accuse you of bullying.
My ego can take it, I hope….
As the request regarding “thumbs up” and “thumbs down” has now been put forward by Wes…may I put forward a request also? It would be interesting to know, of those posting on this forum, who has actually been banned from attending David Thompson’s seances??…your honesty and full name would be appreciated!
Cheers
Denzil
Hi Denzil
I shall lead from the front here! My full name is Susan Farrow and I have not been banned from attending a David Thompson seance.
Having said that, Vanda makes an extremely valid point about those who post under their first names but withhold their surnames in order to safeguard the integrity of future mediumistic evidence. For me, sadly, this is impossible because (for better or worse!) it’s widely known that I edited PN and now edit SPN. I therefore follow Findlay’s and Lodge’s examples and sit anonymously or under a pseudonym when with a medium for the first time. I recommend it – great weight is added to evidence when it comes from someone who has not the faintest idea who you are. Sue
In reply to Denzil I have not been banned from any seance anywhere to the best of my knowledge. I am curious about why you asked this question?
Denzil
I have not been banned, then I have not applied-yet. I understand he is visiting the UK again next year and I may well apply. In the meantime I will reserve judgement.
Re Stephen Hawkings and Victor’s comments. Those atheists and humanists who deny all possibility of an afterlife (and many atheists/agnostics/rationalists now accept it on the evidence) without investigating the evidence are surely stupid, as well as being smug know-it-alls, or at least they THINK they know it all. Not exactly the same, but I worked in a leftwing, middle-class environment for years where they had this attitude about God. I don’t believe in God as such, but certainly accept the evidence for Conscious Energy, the intelligent ether (i-ther) or Spirit. Some of these smug hard-line skeptics think they are so superior. A typical remark of someone I worked with years ago: ‘My little son is SO intelligent. He knows there’s no God.’ This was meant to imply no afterlife either, nor any form of intelligent Mind separate from the living brain. Dr Susan Blackmore is another hard-line skeptic who ignores all evidence which doesn’t fit in with her preconceived views. Wheeled in as an ‘expert’ on NDEs on various TV programs, she ALWAYS says they are hallucinations of some sort completely ignoring the many NDEs which provide cast-iron evidence that the unconscious and clinically ‘dead’ person accurately reported on objects, events, conversations, etc. which took place while they were ‘flatlining’. Stephen Hawkings, I’m afraid, fits into this category of people who think they are so clever they need not even examine the evidence for anything they rule is impossible. If this isn’t ‘silly’, then I don’t know what the term means.
Tony, surely you can allow people to have opinions that are different from yours without calling them “smug know-it-alls” or “stupid”.
I must agree with Wes. We are discussing an important subject and a degree of intellectual rigour would be helpful. Derrogatory adjectives do no one any favours. Those who support David Thompson do not help the poor man’s case by pouring scorn on those who disagree with them. If anything they weaken his case by showing that they have little grasp of rational and objective discussion without personal insults. Perhaps we should take the Oxford Union as our benchmark. Whatever the subject, debate is governed by rules of rational argument and not by emotional shots from the hip.
Vanda, When talking about Stephen Hawking we can take heart from this statement from Carl Sagan, “Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.” Those of us who have made a very careful study of life after death know just how wrong Hawking and the path orthodox scientific teaching has taken – the big bang theory and Einstein’s theory of relativity. No room whatsoever for a place for us to go when our physical bodies pack in. It was Hawking who destroyed Sir Fred Hoyles model of the universe that does have room for the experiments carried out by Sir William Crookes with the materialisation medium Florence Cook. The universe is expanding because the source of energy is coming from the etheric wavelengths, not a big bang at a single point in time. Woebetide any scientist who dares to go down this path. They would be destroyed by their peers.
Michael Roll
Please take time to think that those you mention, who have no understanding that there is an afterlife, will more than likely sleep for a long time when their time to pass has come.
On this basis, give a thought that they receive help and that there is always a helping hand offered to them.
The view is their pathway, we may have been on that same pathway at a stage in our existance at some time.
“It would be interesting to know, of those posting on this forum, who has actually been banned from attending David Thompson’s seances??…your honesty and full name would be appreciated!”
My full name is Billy Stewart. I have not been banned from attending a David Thompson Physical seance.
Rather than asking if anyone posting their comments here has been banned, I imagine it would be more to the point if anyone posting has actually ATTENDED a David Thompson seance (with full names, of course)?.. the reason being that this is actually a discussion about a report on a David Thompson seance attended by Roy Stemman.
I’ll be the first… yes, I have attended a David Thompson physical seance.
I think this would be a more relevant survey.
Who on this forum has attended a David Thompson séance?
Were you Satisfied or dissatisfied?
Following your encounter do you think he is
Genuine ?
Fraud?
You are undecided.
Only include direct experiences. No hearsay evidence.
Thankyou Peter..
My name is Billy Stewart. I was fortunate enough to attend a David Thompson Physical séance earlier this year in Sydney Australia. There were around 10 sitters present at the demonstration.
a) I was definitely satisfied with the evidence presented.
b) In my opinion he is genuine beyond doubt.
Hi Denzil,
You wrote: “It would be interesting to know, of those posting on this forum, who has actually been banned from attending David Thompson’s seances??…”
In the same spirit, as I will assume you asked that question, I would ask you to specify exactly who suggested to you someone on here had been banned from a David Thompson Séance? I would expect your absolute agreement to state the facts concerning this. Only by doing so could we all begin to assess whether what you have been told stands up to objective scrutiny.
I would also ask you to be absolutely specific about the reasons you have been given as to why that person had been banned. Clearly someone has told you this has occurred but have they been open and totally honest about why that happened?
Based on what I know I expect that anyone that is identifiable from their postings here, or elsewhere, as being in the slightest way critical of David Thompson, will also be banned and excluded from future séances.
I am actually very easy to find, you only need to go to the top of this website page and you will see my name. I would be surprised if you did not already know this.
You will have noticed that we are told that anyone critical to séances is likely to disturb the energy and cause problems. Of course, our past great Spiritualist mediums, like your uncle Jack Webber, never knew who were to attend their circles. As such, they never suggested that scepticism, or uncertainty about what might occur, would or could, result in disruption to the phenomena in the séance room.
To answer your question directly, I am one person who has been banned, though I am well aware of others.
However that information was already available on this topic because I posted a link to my forum on here. That forum if you choose to click on the link provided earlier, but also provided again below, might help to clarify for you, and anyone else who cares to look, what happened that resulted in my being banned . You, and whoever else takes the time to follow that link should also have a look at the entire forum, which consists of 1,113 topics overall. It carries some very significant material on Spiritualism and at most 5 negative posts, if you wish to call them that, on physical mediumship regarding questions presented to David Thompson, Warren Caylor and Anders Akersson. Please go to: http://spiritualismlink.forumotion.com/t672-questions-for-david-thompson .
Now the key is that the actual ban came not long after David had reinforced his invitation for me to attend a séance in Adelaide back in 2007, a séance which I had been entirely influential in arranging. My ban related to an issue which I raised about looking at ways to enhance longevity of the “cures” David Thompson performed in his Trance Healing by interlinking with the Spiritual healers in the places he visited. Now I have all the posts that occurred at the time and all the emails that make my comments indisputable.
As it happened, that event coincided with Lis establishing that David Thompson’s guides did not exist. Ironically, Lis had undertaken research as an experienced genealogist to confirm the life of William Charles Cadwell, including his stated years of birth and death, based on that spirit control’s claims, in order, as a gesture of goodwill, to present the evidence as a gift to David Thompson when he came to do the séance. You might imagine her, and my dismay, given our genuine support of David at that time, to discover there was no evidence to support the guide’s claims. It also coincided with a lot of debate on the old Spiritualist Chat room of which David was a moderator and very active participant. Suddenly, and before the results of Lis’s research were known to anyone, I was rather inexplicably banned as an undesirable, and someone who was apparently entirely negative and of dubious character.
As a person whom three Members of the Order of Australia have been prepared to give the highest order of references for, in terms of both my character and my professional abilities, such a denigration of my character and integrity was most disturbing, even more so, because I am a Spiritualist and committed medium of many years experience. Lis, of course, has more years experience as a Spiritualist medium, than the years David Thompson has been alive.
Sadly the forum on which the initial discussion took place appeared to have been the victim of hacking. Luckily, however, all of the threads related to David Thompson were saved, though are not currently on the internet. The remnants of that original debate about apparent inconsistencies in David Thompson’s mediumship, can, however, still be found on various internet sites, quite apart from the forum I have provided a link to above. You may, by taking the time to do some research, discover that there were 37 questions also placed on Facebook, not by me I hasten to say.
I would also add that I do not personally agree with the reasoning of some of those questions, though I would, like many other people, be pleased to see David Thompson decide to provide some sort of reasonable response to them. There is also material on a forum called the Spiritualist Chat Room, though to peruse that material I understand you must become a member.
Now, the reality of being banned or being able to attend David Thompson’s séances is in real terms unimportant. Being banned could occur for a multiplicity of reasons, both genuine and scurrilous. Those who have passed the requirements demanded by the Circle of the Silver Cord and have attended Thompson séances appear to give a very mixed response in terms of their acceptance or otherwise of the phenomena that apparently takes place. On Roy Stemman’s site, under the initial report on his experience at a Thompson seance an American medium, Kate Darling, has posted material which I was well aware of some considerable time ago and yet never made reference to on the forum I am associated with, that material which, in conjunction with other posters raises some fairly major issues. Do take the time to look: http://paranormalreview.com/articles/20110816
Probably one of the key issues in all of this though is that of infra-red and thermographic imagery. Many of the past physical mediums undertook extensive testing and withstood the tests of both infra-red and magnesium flare photographs. Without their dedication and commitment even fewer people would believe in the reality of physical mediumship today. Given your family connections you would be very well aware of this.
W have to remember that by supporting Dark Séances we do act in direct contravention of even more influential past members of the Spiritualist movement who wished it to be banned.
Let us look at Emma Hardinge Britten http://www.ehbritten.org/texts/primary/ehb_dark_circles_and_cabinets_1882.pdf
Then at DD Home and his Lights and Shadows of Spiritualism http://nasm.org.au/pdf/DD%20Home%20Lghts%20and%20Shadows%20of%20Spiritualism.pdf
We can also look at the original piece which damned Dark Circles on the report to the National Spiritualist Convention in Cleveland, Sept 13 1867.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive- free/pdf?res=9907E7DB123AEF34BC4B52DFBF66838C679FDE
I also remind people of the wonderful debate upon this very site
Well in the end we will all make up our own minds, that is, until proper scientific research comes in. Or until, the use of the harmless thermographic cameras controlled by independent researchers becomes general.
Hello Jim,
Thank you for being so candid in your reply to my “tongue in cheek” request. The only reason I made the request was because I was barred from attending Mavis King seances, a lady whose mediumship I had supported for several years at the centre my wife and I ran in Oxfordshire. The time came, however, when I had to publish a letter in Psychic World advising that not only had she been caught out of her chair during several seances but that even when confronted with the facts she chose to carry on…taking money from the punters. I was also barred, along with Paul Barker and many others, from attending Warren Caylor demonstrations…because, as I understand it, we were considered too experienced, having been Noah’s Ark Society members, and I guess it was considered we would have asked to many probing questions to ask?
I’ve had very little contact with David in the 7 years since he left the UK (I could count the emails on one hand)…I met with him again, for the first time, during our attendance at the seance 2 days after Roy Stemmen. My wife and I also met up with David, Christine and Sarah for coffee 2 days later, during which time we showed them the Jack Webber trumpets I have, along with other memorabilia (such as a bangle and ring that had been apported via his mediumship) to show mainly Christine as she had never seen them first hand.
So Jim my only reason to give for making that request was to simply discover whether any of the “anti David” postings were from people holding a grudge and barrings seemed to be a reasonable enough reason. Neither of the people whose seances I was barred from are demo’ing publicly any longer, therefore, they are not appearing on any forums…but please be assured if I believed for one moment that David’s mediumship was not genuine…and I can only go on the seances I have attended…he would not be getting my support.
Sincerely,
Denzil
Thanks for such an informative post, Jim, with many useful links. As it has been proven that Spirit is definitely able to work in light conditions, surely what we, as an organisation, should do is encourage mediums to hold seances in light conditions, and actively discourage those held in total darkness, unless they will allow infra-red equipment into the seance to view the proceedings? If people out there want to pay lots of money to sit in a dark room and see nothing whatsoever, that will be up to them. I know I would never do that.
Surely a line has to be be drawn somewhere, so that the public who judge us are left in no doubt that we, as a movement, do not condone the practice of mediums holding seances in total darkness, without any means of seeing what’s going on.
We have to be aware of public opinion, because, at the end of the day, this is what will draw more people to Spiritualism (and that’s our goal, right?). It has to be said that, at present, people still have a very distorted image of mediumship and Spiritualism as a whole. At best, it is viewed as pure entertainment, and at worst we are seen as deluded, to be made fun of and ridiculed.
One of the main reasons for this skewed perception of our movement must surely be the fact that some of us are happy to sit in blacked out rooms and not question what is going on, if indeed anything is going on. Hence we are perceived to be a very gullible lot, and our movement is mocked. I have to admit I find it incredibly hard to ‘admit’ to being a Spiritualist among certain people, because of the stigma attached to us as an organisation, and it makes me angry, because I am proud of what I believe in.
Let’s be honest, until we bring our seances ‘into the light’, this image people have of us, of being a gullible lot who will believe in anything, won’t go away.
My name is Lis Warwood.I have never been told I was banned from attending a David Thompson seance. I did, however, inform David Thompson that I would not attend one of his seances, after he banned someone else. So did the most venerated elder statesman of Spiritualism in South Australia, a man who had in his 55 years as a Spiritualist witnessed just about every possible form of mediumship there is to see. A man who found the attitude and comments of Mr Thompson so reprehensible, that he refused to allow his organisation to continue to support an upcoming Thompson event, despite the fact that one of that organisation’s trustees had facilitated it occurring, and had actively worked to encourage people to attend it. That person was, surprisingly, the very person who was banned.
I have, however, as did that irreproachable elder of Spiritualism, witnessed a David Thompson public demonstration of mediumship, and one of his workshops, and a trance and psychic surgery demonstration, and can, speak with certainty about the impact of those activities on the people who attended.
In particular, I am reminded, as I think back on that time, just how strongly Mr Thompson, and subsequently his control William Charles Cadwell, stated, Cadwell’s ability to control, indeed, stop the the heartbeat of the medium. So emphatic were both Thompson and his control of this, that two people from the audience were invited to come up and feel the no longer existent pulse of the medium whilst in the trance state, controlled by Cadwell. Sadly, the two people who came forward were both very experienced doctors, who were obliged to report to all present, that Mr Thompson’s pulse was both not only still in existence but reflected a very healthy young man indeed.
Hi all given the game is afoot, as Sherlock Holmes was inspired to say by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, my name is Jim Warwood.
I think you really should all understand that Thermographic Imaging is a fantastic scientific development. I ran into this particular scientific advance because of an involvement in an application for Government funding for a major development in the way this could be used.
It is an amazing advance. The proposal involved an ability to detect metal in food products without creating any danger, an ability to detect hot spots on transformers to prevent fires and, more importantly in Australia, the ability to use a gyrocopter and camera to overfly powerlines thereby preventing bushfires.
This at no physical risk to the operators where every individual heat source is identifiable by the variation in the colour spectrum recorded. Come on out there, this is high quality stuff and may I recomend that you all should find a company to do this on the wiring in your own house.
the consultants are inexpensive, highly skilled and would work willingly in a seance room. An offer has been made to David Thompson for an Adelaide Seance, fully paid for, with neither Lis or I attending, but with Thermography and Adelaide University Parapsychology Department people in place
This sounds like an important offer. If Thompson has got the goods what on earth could he object to?
Hi All,
Warren Caylor:
As Denzil has mentioned I was refused a place for Warren Caylor. This despite assurances from Warren and Ron Gilkes (Jenny’s Sanctuary) that there would be no problem with me sitting. The sittings were not full every time as people were bieng asked if they would like to go to seances that were not full.
On another occasaion I would have sat with Warren in the Psychic News test situation that Warren pulled out of the day before the seance, with completely unreasonable requests to be able to dictate the seance procedure that would have left the “test” as invalid and irrelevant.
Mavis King:
Mavis was in horror when she realised I was sitting. I asked why she should have a problem with me sitting if her work was honest. We all later discovered this was not the case. It is important to note that she wanted to continue regardless and the venue (Jenny’s Sanctuary) was happy to have her sitting even though Ron knew that she was out of the chair.
Tom and Linda Anderson:
I was asked to sit and report for the Zerdin Fellowship for a seance. My place was assured near the cabinet and then, when I would not promise to keep quiet about what I would experience if it were negative, I had my place withdrawn.
I wsih to stress this was not the Andersons who barred me in any way!
David Thompson:
The Zerdin Fellowship informed me that I was welcome to sit with David on his tour a few years ago when they were promoting him. I said that I would not sit as I was extremely disappointed with events taking place and questions not being answered re testing etc that the Zerdin were promoting. Although I said to Dennis Pearman of the Zerdin that I could not sit and hold my head high, I then became barred from a seance that I did not wish to attend.
I must add that I have only ever behaved in a responsible way and never caused any harm to any medium. I have sung along (badly) in all seances that I have attended.
I have never sworn, cursed or been inconsiderate to any sitter, medium or spirit communicator.
I have only ever sat with a positive attitude and not for personal gain either financially or for a demand for personal communication
I have never grabbed ectoplasm, put my feet out or tried to sneak in any viewing equipment or lights.
On numerous occasions I have searched sitters in preparation for a seance with many different mediums.
Almost a model sitter I think. I am not sure what makes me not wanted?
warm regards
A video was made of William materializing at a David Thompson seance and could be seen in the Circle of the Silver Cord website, also a still picture of the same. Apparently the video was taken thru an internal window from a room adjoining the seance room, both rooms being blacked out, with some kind of infra-red camera. However the resulting image was rather unsatisfactory. It certainly showed something emerging from the cabinet curtain, but it was not fully formed. I guess this was evidential in itself as it certainly didn’t look anything like David or any other person poking their head thru the curtain. Hopefully clearer pictures/videos will be available at a later date. Already there are clear still photos of David with ectoplasm emerging from his facial orifices.
Of course, as someone has remarked, whatever visual evidence is provided there will always be room for skeptics to doubt it. All pictures/videos can be faked, just look at the special effects in movies. Lots of mediums have been photographed producing ectoplasm, but skeptics claim it’s just cheesecloth or some similar substance.
Tony Papard wrote:
“A video was made of William materializing at a David Thompson seance and could be seen in the Circle of the Silver Cord website, also a still picture of the same.”
The still picture can be seen here:
http://circleofthesilvercord.net/?page_id=175
What is curious about this picture is that the ‘materialised head’ has exactly the same contrast level as the curtain of the cabinet, indicating it has a similar shade – WHITE. The form can be clearly seen holding the curtain up and around its body. This causes the bottom of the curtain to rise up off the floor to reveal a BLACK ‘blob’ – exactly the kind of position where the feet would be.
The back blob is even more clear if you brighten the image with photo editing software.
Question is, if this blob is one of ‘William’s’ feet, why is it black if the face is white?!
Was Thompson weraring dark coloured trainers at that seance? If not, then that would rule out any suggestion it’s actually one of his trainers.
Tony Papard:
“It certainly showed something emerging from the cabinet curtain, but it was not fully formed. I guess this was evidential in itself as it certainly didn’t look anything like David or any other person poking their head thru the curtain.”
If you wrapped a white material around your head and posed for a photo in the dark, do you really think any one would recognise you?
I really think we need to higher our standards at what constitues relevant evidence in matters such as this. A video of a white blob sticking out of a pair of curtains just won’t do at all – particularly if there is a black blob visible where a fake medium’s feet would be! To be truly evidential, a video film would need to show the medium and everyone else in the room – from the start of the seance until at least the production of the phenomena. That would at least rule out fraud upon the part of the medium or any accomplacies ( at least those we could see).
Tony Papard:
“Lots of mediums have been photographed producing ectoplasm, but skeptics claim it’s just cheesecloth or some similar substance.”
Why do you care what the sceptics say? If Margery Crandon or Helen Duncan gave up producing evidential phenomena because of what the sceptics said then our Movement would be a lot poorer!
I’ll reply to Peter Raggett’s proposed survey. He wrote:
I think this would be a more relevant survey.
Who on this forum has attended a David Thompson séance? Myself
Were you Satisfied or dissatisfied? Fairly satisfied. Would have been nice to have seen my partner in red light, or to have recognized his voice. But what he said was evidential, as was size of his hands and softness of his voice.
Following your encounter do you think he is
Genuine ? Yes
Fraud? No
You are undecided.
Only include direct experiences. No hearsay evidence.
Hi Tony,
I’ve attended in excess of 15 David Thompson seances…from his earliest of days in Crawley…to those held at my own, now defunct, centre in Oxfordshire…I’ve lead a couple of his seances at Jenny’s Sanctuary when Paul Barker was out of the country…and more recently I attended an excellent seance suring his most recent European tour. As stated I have spoken out against a medium found to be out of her chair and have sat with Colin Fry, Stewart Alexander and Bill Meadows…so have a bit of experience by which to make some comparison with David’s mediumship. In my opinion he is, without a doubt, a genuine Medium through whom the Spirit world are able to manifest various aspects of Physical Phenomena. I am told that he currently carries out less than 40 seances per year, including his home development circles and as you have seen from these postings the number of sitters can range from 10 to around 40 (the higher numbers only at Jenny’s Sanctuary I believe) per sittng. At my centre our sanctuary could accomodate 23 sitters including the medium, his wife, plus his circle leader. Would just like to add, as mentioned in the past by those wiser than I, if David could reproduce half of what manifests in his seances and transfer it onto the stage he would be a millionaire by now…he can’t…so he isn’t…he is just a man trying to show through his mediumship that there is a life to look forward to beyond this one.
Kind Regards
Denzil
Hi Tony,
You had evidence from a person so close to you and yet David only got a fair for the experience?
You were sure about what William said re the aspirin. Where did you get this information?
You mentioned that on occasions William allowed red light in the room. I cannot remember in the UK (up until this latest tour) when there was not red light in the room. This also allowed time scales to be included in the perspective of what was happening during light and dark periods.
I cannot think who mentioned the swallowing cheesecloth. In red light, and gravity taking over, moving and swirling ectoplasm was seen on many occasions by all sitters present, going in all directions and wrapping around the head and at all kinds of angles. This was a moving energy in light for all to see. Not evidence of survival but a powerful force none the less.
warm regards
Jim, your comments are totally over-the-top and uncalled for. I make a joke about people using incomplete names, and you accuse me of being ‘rude’. Well so be it, I thought I could inject a little bit of cynical humor into this heated debate. As to not being a Spiritualist, I prefer Michael Roll’s term ‘Survivalist’ since ‘Spiritualist’ has religious connotations and we approach the subject from a rationalist standpoint, based on the evidence. I am most certainly not a ‘Christian Spiritualist’ as, in my view, that is a contradiction in terms. Nobody can intervene to stop us accepting personal responsibility for our thoughts, words and actions. If I have offended anybody, I apologize. We must all deal with our own karma. I accept Christ, the Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi, Sir Bertrand Russell, Karl Marx, etc. as either spiritual gudes or philosophers who can show by example or by their ideas how to live and make the world a better place, though followers of all these can distort their message and create the opposite effect from that originally intended, thus the Inquisition in the case of Christ and Stalinism/Pol Pot, etc. in the case of Karl Marx.
I just feel all this constant attacking of David Thompson is itself unspiritual, especially when some people are hiding under pseudonyms or first names so cannot be identified. As to mediums finding out details about them you can always go to mediums anonymously. However when attending physical seances by any medium there does have to be an invitation and ID to protect the medium from what happened to Helen Duncan, for instance. So to use the need to be anonymous as the reason for using false or partial names doesn’t really wash. You’d have to give your real name and show ID to attend a physical seance anyway.
Thank you for your valuable contributions, to this debate, Tony.
I would dispute that the majority of the people writing here are attacking David Thompson. Many of them have said as much. There is nothing personal in their criticisms as far as I can see. It is a pity that both David Thompson in his replies to Roy Stemman’s article and subsequent questions, and Victor Zammit, David’s principal protagonist, seem to have taken these questionings personally and visibly taken umbrage. It is regrettable that both have now removed themselves from any further discussion. Serious questions have been posed. They have the right of reply, and it is to be hoped that they will still respond in a polite, calm and rational way.
Speaking personally, I do not wish to impugn either man’s sincerity or integrity. I would congratulate both for their dedicated hard work in the cause of disseminating knowledge about and awareness of the afterlife. No-one can doubt their solid achievement. The questions asked are not unspiritual personal attacks, but questions about the value of their contributions Could they do more, could they do it better, could they improve their protocols and become more convincing, are their controls tight enough, are they sufficiently self-critical? Aren’t such questions asked in every walk of life, of every person’s work, and in particular of every public performer, in whatever capacity? The extent to which we can distance our ego from our performance will be the extent to which we will find such critcism helpful and a spur to greater effort, or a “personal attack” which we resent and react badly to.
I would agree with you that we should not criticise the work of others in an aggressive or vindictive or personal way. We do not want destructive criticism. We want constructive criticism, and I think that by and large the criticism here has been constructive.
There is another very important point. You say that you are not a Spiritualist. David Thompson says the same. I am not sure about Victor Zammit, but I guess that he would make the same claim. However David Thompson’s work is publicly demonstrated in mainly Spiritualist venues around the world. The majority of people writing here are Spiritualists. Spiritualism, and therefore every declared Spiritualist, has the responsibility to assess the evidence laid before it by all the different forms of mediumship. It has to do this if Spiritualism is to remain a credible force in the world. I think there is a strong case for saying, not that Spiritualism has been too aggressive in its assessment, but too lenient. There is much sub-standard mediumship in our churches and centres. There is a strong case for saying we should be more discerning and discriminating. We allow too many aspiring mediums through before they are ready, and forget that the best mediums are not made but born. We allow too many people who “want” to be a medium (perhaps because they are ego-led), to succeed, instead of asking how we can best serve the Spirit World and the Spiritualist Movement on Earth, which might both be better served by making better use of fewer good mediums.
If David Thompson and Victor Zammit cannot accept this process of evaluation and assessment, then I think they should consider their use of Spiritualist venues and opt to perform like many professional mental-mediums in other public fora. As long as they make use of Spiritualist venues, then DT’s performance reflects on the Spiritualist movement, so has to be evaluated and assessed by it. But I am sure I am speaking for you, too, when I say that this must be carried out in a calm, constructive and sensitive way.
Hi Paul, I find your comments on David’s past seances very interesting, and definite proof, since I trust your reports, that something paranormal is indeed happening at his seances. I only said ‘fairly satisfied’ as naturally I’d love to have seen something in red light if only ectoplasm forming. Of course to recognize anybody I knew personally by facial features or voice recognition would have also been very satisfying. I did, however, think both Quentin’s and Louis’ voices sounded authentic. My own partner was a first-time communicator, was naturally shy in company, and so I think not getting his voice sounding exactly as in life after 20 years on the Other Side was not too unexpected. I gather this is very common, and getting the Earth voice right when you haven’t used it for so long, and using an ectoplasmic voice box at that, takes a lot of practice. He has told me since: ‘I did materialize for you at the seance, you felt my hands, but you couldn’t see me. The voice was wrong, ectoplasm is horrible sticky, smelly stuff. Well that’s how it seemed to me. Not pleasant, like drowning in honey or something.’
I answered the survey, proposed by myself and taken up by Peter, as follows:
“Thankyou Peter..
My name is Billy Stewart. I was fortunate enough to attend a David Thompson Physical séance earlier this year in Sydney Australia. There were around 10 sitters present at the demonstration.
a) I was definitely satisfied with the evidence presented.
b) In my opinion he is genuine beyond doubt.”
Now I just looked at the “thumbs up and thumbs down” beneath my answer to the survey and see that there are 4 “thumbs down” ????
Why would anyone (far less 4 people) want to put a “thumbs down” to an honest answer to a survey ??
My advice to some people on this forum would be to let go of your ego and take a little bit of time to think before just clicking the “thumbs down” feature.
Also, I notice that only two or three people have bothered to answer the survey at all… maybe the one’s who have clicked the “thumbs down” are the very people who have never attended a David Thompson Physical seance ???
mmmm…
I think we are in danger of regarding those in spirit as all seeing and all knowing when they are just ordinary people a bit further down the evolutionary route. Also regarding them as some great homogenous group who all confer with each other when they could be very diversified. Some may prefer to keep their discoveries and research to themselves for the time being. There would still be egos involved with people not long in spirit and it may be as hard to get new ideas and theories accepted in some places over there as it is over here.
We may ‘know’ that thermal imaging cameras are harmless in a séance room but they may not. I doubt they have earth like research facilities so may be reliant on what scraps of information they can glean from us. Should they take the word of human experts who have been known to get things wrong occasionally? For instance a daily glass of red wine has been considered by experts alternately good and bad as often as the wind blows. Indeed I have given up trying to keep track of the latest advice. Don’t forget we are dealing with peoples lives and health here. Those in spirit may not be willing to take the risk.
I wonder if we would be so enthusiastic over introducing such devices into the séance room if there was evidence that mistakes could affect the health of the sitters in the same way it was said to affect the medium? For instance what would be the general view on this matter today if a number of sitters had been fatally injured during the Helen Duncan incident I wonder?
BTW its my understanding that thermal imaging cameras incorporate computer technology . Are computers OK in the séance rooms? Digital cameras would also come under this heading.
We are faced with a dilemma. If a medium says his guides tell him no imaging devices we can hardly ignore the request. All we can do is take account of it in our assessment of his abilities. Maybe the reason for all this confusion is nothing to do with the problem of observation at all.
I do get the impression some times that spirit appear to be purposely impeding the production of cast iron proof of survival. Could it be that it is considered by them important that a certain period of time is involved before the critical mass of acceptance is achieved in order to avoid widespread panic among susceptible people? Maybe they are worried of violent reactions from the devoutly religious or attempted censorship by material scientists advising the government. Just a thought.
Hi Peter,
You wrote:
“We may ‘know’ that thermal imaging cameras are harmless in a séance room but they may not. I doubt they have earth like research facilities so may be reliant of human experts who have been known to get things wrong occasionally?… Don’t forget we are dealing with peoples lives and health here. Those in spirit may not be willing to take the risk.”
If we follow this logic, how did the spirit team know that sound recording equipment was “harmless” before they allowed it in the seance room? Are you suggesting that they didn’t know at all and just took a gamble that it wouldn’t affect the medium?!
Are you also suggesting that they gambled on the lives of Margery Crandon, Helen Duncan, Jack Webber and the host of other mediums who have been photographed via infra red still cameras with the guides permission?!
Seems like you are.
Sorry, I can’t agree at all with your reasoning here. The spirit team know exactly what they are doing.
Peter Raggett:
“I wonder if we would be so enthusiastic over introducing such devices into the séance room if there was evidence that mistakes could affect the health of the sitters in the same way it was said to affect the medium?”
Then kindly provide this “evidence” so we can evaluate it. On a side note, what “evidence” can you provide us with to show that mistakes with sound recording equipment have ever caused a detrimental effect to a medium or sitter’s health?
Peter Raggett:
“BTW its my understanding that thermal imaging cameras incorporate computer technology . Are computers OK in the séance rooms? Digital cameras would also come under this heading.”
Sound recording equipment also incorportates the same kind of computer technology and has been successfully used in seances for years.
Peter Raggett:
“We are faced with a dilemma. If a medium says his guides tell him no imaging devices we can hardly ignore the request.”
But we are perfectly entitled to ask why not, and analyse the reasons given for the prohibition. We can then draw our own conclusions as to whether or not the answers are reasonable and credible. To just blindly accept them without question just falls into the hands of fake mediums who, of course, WILL say their ‘guides’ won’t allow “imaging devices”!
This aside, Thompson HAS been filmed with a low light video camera. So the question of computers and the guides technological knowledge, which you have brought up, are irrelevant in this case. If Thompson’s ‘materialisation’ can be filmed with a low light video camera, why can’t it be filmed with an infra red or thermal imaging camera which would offer much more detailed images?
Of course, the sceptical opinion would be that it is because more detailed images would show that the ‘materialisation’ was infact Thompson. It is therefore in Thompson’s best interests to provide more detailed video film of the materialisations he claims to produce. As it stands, the current still picture of the video film that is on his website poses the strange issue of the ‘black foot’. Would an ectoplasmic foot be so black, even in slight shadow? If it isn’t a foot, what could it be?
Again, the sceptical opinion – and one that regretfully fits what the picture shows – is that it is part of Thompson’s trainer. It is therefore important that more detailed, credible film is produced.
Under Fair Use, Commentary and criticism: People can show a work to discuss and critique it. Therefore, see:
What excellent logic Simon!
For too long sitters have treated Spirit like gods – whatever they say must never be questioned even if it is illogical.
Dare anyone ask for a frank discussion on why heat cameras can’t be used instead of yet another harmonica solo from Satchmo?
If as was argued earlier there is a block on too much info or scientific validation, then let Spirit plainly say so, so we can fumble in the dark for another 20 years until the time is ripe for true disclosure.
Simon
I am just exploring all the possible answers to try and make sense of the situation. I am not saying I necessarily hold those views so don’t get excited. Playing devils advocate is a good way of exploring all avenues. I am still reserving judgement and in the meantime offering some defence for someone who appears to have withdrawn from the discussion.
You appear to be going down the route that all those in spirit exchange all their information and research with one another. There could be countless experimental groups, some mainstream like our orthodox scientists, and some considered maverick that explore alternative ideas, and go their own way in comparative obscurity. The way Rupert Sheldrake’s experiments regarding telepathy in animals, although compelling, is regarded as beyond the pail and shunned and ridiculed by mainstream scientists is a typical example.
Again, what is regarded by one experimental group as totally safe may be treated with caution by others. Then we have the added complication of mediums being of different stages of development and different constitutions. There are many variables to consider.
I have no idea how spirit discovered that sound recording equipment or any of the other new technology was OK. All research involves some element of risk. New drugs are trialled after extensive research for dangerous side effects but no one really knows if they are safe till the trials are completed on humans. Even then some side effects are accepted as inevitable. I assume that eventually certain technology by some experimental groups in spirit was decided as safe but we don’t know if someone in spirit took a chance do we? I imagine a human must have been used as a guinea pig at some time.
All séances are experiments. Maybe the earlier experiment trying to get an image of David Thompson did not go too well, hence the delay. Maybe possible harm was feared. We have no way of knowing unless someone asks the question of those in spirit.
Apparently all séances involving ectoplasm are dangerous for the medium if interrupted suddenly. What I was saying is would we be so fond of criticising mediums and telling them to get their fingers out (and possibly risk their health) and produce the pictorial evidence if we knew our own lives were at risk if anything went wrong during such an experiment we attended? I think not.
When anyone mentions the word trainers to me I always see an image of what I think a typical trainer looks like and it always looks predominantly white and garish. Does anyone know if DT wears black trainers?
As I think Sir William Crookes said, photographs do not provide proof of anything unless you have total trust in the person taking them or you witnessed them being taken.
Another possibility I explored was that spirit maybe trying to protect us from ourselves. Maybe mankind is not considered quite ready for total proof yet and all the delays and problems are about keeping things simmering till the time is right.
Imagine if we achieved a total breakthrough and pictures, testimonies from respected scientists and cast iron proof appeared in all the respected newspapers and scientific journals throughout the western world. How long would it be before fundamentalist Christians and Muslims accused those involved of summoning up Satan, effigies burnt, fatwas issued and assassinations attempted? Probably not very long.
I too am frustrated over all the problems and delays involved in acquiring cast iron proof. I am just trying to make sense of it all.
Dave, what you say about the etheric forces setting the timing for the big breakthrough – filming recently deceased people being physically reunited with their loved ones on Earth, fits in with my experience at the Rita Goold experiment that I attended in 1983. The materialised Helen Duncan (she had already been checked out by her daughter) told me that they set the timing not me, “very often it’s us Michael that is putting the block on what you are trying to do, not your enemies. It’s no good you just charging over the top by yourself if the whole army does not come with you.”
This took the frustration away from me. I now put my trust in the etheric part of the universe where Findlay, Crookes and Lodge are. They must know what they are doing. I am sure they can see the big picture much better than we can.
Michael Roll
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Hi Sue.
Looks like this article is going to go on for long time yet
http://www.leslieflint.com/billinghurst7679.html
Think it would be nice if the people where to listen to this short recording taken from Leslie Flint.
You can listen to the attitude of earth bound spirits talking to Spirit,some of the attitudes I read in this Forum is of a liken,It takes the mand himself Sir William Crookes to remind people,I think it is about time maybe people just sat back,take a listen,take good think to themselves,then come back with all there great answers to tell us all what Spirit should be doing now.This was recorded in 1979,and then Sir William is telling the state of the way we live compared to his time,2011 our earth is in a worse position,so are we making it harder for Spirit and not easy,Where is the true LOVE,TRUTH and HARMONY in the world to make it easy for Spirit to come to us,instead we make it harder,Listen to what he say’s about Spiritulism.
I wait with baited breath for the sceptics to tell me not to listen to them recordings as there is no one around that can say that is the voice of Sir william and it could be of anyone.
Tom
Thanks for that link, Tom. I am still listening to it. What a great man Leslie Flint was. Says it all really.
Quote from Leslie Flint interview at http://www.leslieflint.com/
“In those days everything that was done was organized by reputable Spiritualist societies to try to give conviction of life after death to suffering humanity. Not like today which is now big business where people are more concerned about their name in the paper and making as much money as they can. The people I worked with, thank God, were genuine, sincere, deeply involved and anxious to help comfort humanity.
All those meeting that we did – I know prices are different today – but when you think that they would hire the Kingsway Hall or the Scala Theatre, they had to advertise of course, they also had an organist and yet they did it for almost nothing. There was no money made. I didn’t get any fees. I was never paid a fee. We did it because we wanted to help and comfort and uplift mankind. The financial side had to be assured, obviously there were some people who made a donation towards the expenses but I never, ever, received a fee.
I was asked by different Spiritualist organizations if I would help the Societies because things were difficult financially. Not like today. You read in the “Psychic News”, for an evening of clairvoyance at the local church, they charge £2 – £3 – £5. We didn’t look at it, we didn’t think of it, in that way. Finance was not the vitally important thing it is today. Today it is big business. I am ashamed to be a Spiritualist today, to some extent, when I’m lumped together with some of these people. To me, they are not presenting Spiritualism in a way which commands respect”.
Hi Vanda.
I think if people where just to take some time out,spend some time listening to the recordings,reading all the transcripts,
Everything is free,you do not have to buy any books,you do not have to buy any CD’s,If you like you can give a donation to help the trust.This was the very 1st website I came to when looking into mediumship after my wife passed to spirit,I have searched many many sites on the interenet.
The answers to anyone’s questions is all found with Leslie Flint and it is free,this man gave his life to Spirit teachings to mankind.
Tom
Re the rather unsatisfactory video footage and still from it of David’s guide William materializing. It is a great pity for some reason the camera was apparently not rolling when William came fully out of the cabinet curtain, whether fully or only partly materilaized.
However the black blobs at the bottom of the curtain are not necessarily evidence of fraud, or being Thompson’s trainers. Look at photos of materializations from other mediums (Zerdin Phenomenal magazine has loads of these) and you’ll see among them photos of a materialized Spirit with a very black beard, which almost looks painted on. We simply don’t know how ectoplasm works or how different shades, etc. are portrayed, that’s assuming the pictures are genuine.
Also in the Thompson picture from the video they have attempted to enlarge the facial area of the Spirit, and it does appear to show a face forming. It doesn’t to me look like David Thompson’s features thru a think white cloth.
I agree, however, that until we can see seances like this in at least partial light or obtain better pictures/videos, or be allowed to wear night goggles, then we cannot fully appreciate the materializations. The problem is, of course, were the pictures crystal clear and it looked like a real person standing there, then undoubtedly people would say it was fraud and that Thompson somehow had a human accomplice smuggled into the cabinet.
It seems whatever mediums manage to produce, someone will say it is trickery.
I would be interested to know if Tony has ever sat with another demonstrating physical medium. Does he have any means of comparison? Also I would be interested to know which physical mediums Jim has sat with since he seems to speak from a lot of experience.
Hi Hilary,
On my part I have not attended any dark seance or any séance attempting materialisation. You will have noticed from one of my previous posts that I was due to attend one when David Thompson banned me (I will not repeat the facts they are clear from my earlier post). However I have been involved in bringing David Thompson to an Australian centre for what was to be his first major work since moving to Australia this is back in 2006. This included Trance Healing, a demonstration of mediumship, private readings, a workshop on mental mediumship and a Sunday Service. So I do have experience of David personally. Whilst our immediate response was positive within a week the feedback we had was far less good especially when all the trance healing “cures” were seen to have failed
However I have been involved in the Spiritualist movement since I met Lis (who is also posting here) 28 years ago. Lis has been a Spiritualist for 45 years and has sat in several Physical mediumship Seances, the last one a dark séance with Colin Fry .
When I met Lis I was fortunate to be immediately included in a deep trance circle, conducted in red light, where Lis was the Medium. This ran for some time with a very experienced group of sitters and an expert circle leader. Not only did we get a high level of philosophy but we did get some phenomena. Most noticeable was the total overshadowing of the Medium at every circle, as the guide took over the communication, which allowed us to see the communicating Spirit quite easily. These sessions were taped using a very sophisticated system devised by a technician who worked in that field at the Royal Albert Hall, with a microphone in the room and a friend operating the tape deck from another room the moment the trance session commenced.
Clearly in such a deep trance session the etiquette towards the entranced Medium is the same as in any physical séance. It was an amazing experience for someone new to Spiritualism and a privilege to have been invited. Lis is also a Transfiguration medium and a very gifted platform worker. My introduction included watching her during her work on the church circuit covering 28 churches in East London area (under her maiden name)before we moved to Australia, Lis’s home country.
I myself am a platform Medium with 8 years’ experience and have run an open development circle which challenges its participants for nearly 9 years now. I also teach spoon bending and dowsing which particularly help to illustrate the difference between psychic or telekinetic and work with Spirit
My experience includes attending trance and transfiguration sessions, both with Lis and other mediums. Memorably I attended a brilliant séance run for us by one of the finest Mediums the USA has produced. This was run in accordance with the rules on the National Spiritualist Association of Churches (NSAC), in red light and included transfiguration and table tipping but not materialisation. The NSAC refuse to contemplate dark séances because of the problems experienced with fraud over so many past years. The table work was entirely spectacular and we were lucky to have an independent, sceptical scientist write up a very positive report on it for our records.
As you will have noticed both Lis and I write, for Spirit of PN and for its predecessor Psychic News. Lis has also written for Psypioneer. On top of our active role in running events or working we are passionate researchers and historians of Spiritualism. I think all up we have around 1,000 books (including ebooks) old Spiritualist magazines etc. I have been helping Lis in detailed research into the history of the Dark Séance hence the detailed past knowledge.
My personal opinion is that Spiritualism needs to stand aside from anything which does not give sufficient genuine proof of survival. In that I support the overriding position of the NSAC and as I understand it the SNU.
In terms of writing on this thread my involvement with the DT issue came from the visit listed above and from comments upon the Spiritualist Chatroom in late 2006/2007 when David Thompson was a moderator. Indeed what came out on that Chat Room, in combination with my experiences meant that my séance ban occurred the day before I was going to cancel my attendance.
I have not made any comment upon this thread where I do not have genuine, verifiable, information to back it up. My own forum, which I have given a link to already, has followed David Thompson. However it also has some wonderful material on past mediums, plus lots of other very worthwhile information to more than balance any “controversial” articles.
Hello Jim,
you said “The table work was entirely spectacular and we were lucky to have an independent, sceptical scientist write up a very positive report on it for our records”.
Jim…would you be a gent and post a copy of this report…would definitely be interested in seeing what a sceptical scientist has to say about Table Tipping.
Thanks
Denzil
I will look into this Denzil, part of the information is in the public domain but the rest belongs, in Copyright terms, to the scientist and to the centre. Therefore your personal use of the information would be constrained and I would need a guaranteed confidential method to provide it, where you committed never to re use it.
Difficult sometimes when people shut down on copyright, but I would expect the same respect as I would give COSC’s copyright.
The one thing I would say is that I refuse to name the Medium on the same grounds that Simon refused to name the one he mentioned. In part to keep the focus on Mr Thompson, in part because their unimpeachable quality makes it innappropriate to place their name in juxtaposition with his name. Let us be honest, the person I am talking about was, very succesfully, part of Prof. Gary Schwartz Afterlife Experiments. Not someone who rejected involvement in his research.
Let us make this plain, from 2006 to 2008 the promotion of COSC said David Thompson had been reasearched by Gary Schwartz. The objectors challenged this but it was not until Paul Barker provided Mr Zammit with the evidence that the claim was removed. Mr Zammit then apoligised for misunderstanding what Mr Thompson had told him. Yet I can fully accept Victor’s problem, as it was what we were told in 2006.
You may understand my determination not to link this information relating to a beautiful person and wonderful Medium with this thread.
jim
Hi All…especially the Thermal Imaging advocates,
Please follow this link to view cheap thermal imaging cameras
http://www.thermascan.co.uk/assets/ir-classifieds.php
Enjoy
Denzil
Peter Raggett:
“Again, what is regarded by one experimental group as totally safe may be treated with caution by others. Then we have the added complication of mediums being of different stages of development and different constitutions. There are many variables to consider….
“I assume that eventually certain technology by some experimental groups in spirit was decided as safe but we don’t know if someone in spirit took a chance do we? I imagine a human must have been used as a guinea pig at some time.”
Sorry Peter, but in the first paragraph you suggest that as mediums are all different the potential effects of video cameras upon their mediumship would not be the same. In the second paragraph you then suggest that at “some time “a human (singular) “must have been used as a guinea pig”.
Well, if mediums are different and react differently to infra red, then how would using only ONE medium as a “guinea pig” (!!!) show how other mediums would react to it? It wouldn’t. So, if we expand your line of reasoning to take this into account, it suggest that every time a medium was subjected to new external stimuli such as flash light, sound recording equipment, red light or infra red, then spirit were just taking a gamble that this stimuli wouldn’t effect their health and well-being!
I’m sorry, but this suggestion is silly and rather disrespectful to the spirit people who have the well-being of the medium as their highest priority at all times. And your inference that they would treat them as some kind of ‘lab rat’ in order to experiment upon is preposterous.
Peter Raggett:
“What I was saying is would we be so fond of criticising mediums and telling them to get their fingers out (and possibly risk their health) and produce the pictorial evidence if we knew our own lives were at risk if anything went wrong during such an experiment we attended? I think not.”
Criticising a medium and criticising and analysing the REASONS given for the lack of progress towards detailed video film, are two different things! I have not criticised Thompson. To expand upon your point further – I know of one medium who, despite the instructions and encouragement of the guides towards filming, decided to ignore their advice.
So, it’s very easy to play the medium as a ‘victim’ in order to defend the lack of progress towards detailed filming. However, this approach infers that everybody who wishes to see filming take place is demanding it, and are berating the medium for the lack of progress. This is just not true, at all.
Peter Raggett:
“Maybe mankind is not considered quite ready for total proof yet and all the delays and problems are about keeping things simmering till the time is right.”
I don’t believe video film would provide “total proof” of anything. By it’s nature, it cannot irrefutably rule out fraud. The hardened sceptics would certainly not acknowledge it as Spiritualism’s Holy Grail of survival evidence.
Tony Papard:
“However the black blobs at the bottom of the curtain are not necessarily evidence of fraud, or being Thompson’s trainers.”
I’m afraid they ARE evidence for fraud – just as they are evidence of black ectoplasm, also. All we can do is draw conclusions as to what we believe is the most likely explanation for them being this colour. I take your point about a Zerdin photograph showing a black beard. However, there is nothing surprising about a beard being black. On the other hand, why should an ectoplasmic form of a caucasian, ‘William’, have a black foot and a white head?
Assuming that this black blob is indeed a dark colour and part of the alleged ‘materialisation’, there are only two explanations as far as I can see:
1. For some unknown reason, spirit have coloured the foot black while colouring the head white.
2. The blob is actually part of Thompson’s footware, which he has mistakenly revealed when holding up the curtain around his head.
When analysing the likleyhood of 1., are you aware of any records of materialisations having white heads and black feet? If yes, then this explanation is credible. If not, then it is not so.
When analysing the likelyhood of 2., are you aware of any records of fraudulent mediums draping white sheets around their upper bodies and impersonating materialisations? Of course, we both know this has occured, so this explanation for the black foot is credible.
Everybody will draw their own conclusions based upon the evidence.
Tony Papard:
“It doesn’t to me look like David Thompson’s features thru a think[sic] white cloth.”
You cannot see any detailed facial features whatsoever. All the picture shows is a blurry, white blob. Since you cannot deduce anything from “features” you cannot see, it is extremely illogical to claim these unperceivable features don’t resemble Thompson’s physiognomy.
Tony Papard:
“The problem is, of course, were the pictures crystal clear and it looked like a real person standing there, then undoubtedly people would say it was fraud and that Thompson somehow had a human accomplice smuggled into the cabinet.”
You keep repeating this point. However, as I keep asking – why do you care what the sceptics say? Physical mediumship has carried on regardless for over 100 years! IIn that time it has successfully achieved flashlight photography and infra red photography.
Why should it stop there?
Peter said “Again, what is regarded by one experimental group as totally safe may be treated with caution by others. Then we have the added complication of mediums being of different stages of development and different constitutions. There are many variables to consider….
I would have to agree with you Peter…back in the day testing and photographing of PM’s by flash/infra red means was more commonplace. However, today, the results produced and published are still being pawed over and criticised/questioned by those who have little understanding or knowledge of what physical mediumship is about…they are to blinkered by material/scientific belief.
Unfortunately, today’s technology has yet to produce an acceptable method of viewing/recording that is considered safe for use in seances where the mediumship is Ectoplasm based…and what may be confusing this issue is that most, if not all, of the recent low lux recordings published on the InterWeb have been with what has become know as [New] Energy based groups. Other than the Scole experiment, which was also carried out in the dark, I’m not aware of any current Energy based groups claiming to have solid entities materialising in their seance rooms. I would hope there are some and perhaps it is this form of mediumship which could lend itself more readilly to the kind of experimentation which ectoplasm is currently unable to tolerate??
It would be interesting, if there are any such groups on this forum, to see your viewpoints regarding any potential dangers, or otherwise, that your spirit team may have discussed with you.
Kind Regards
Denzil
The dreaded ‘black blobs’ question…. yes, could be the medium’s shoes, but could equally well be the shoes of William. Or do Spirits appear naked or shoeless?
And in the close-up of the head I can clearly see the features of a face, apparently partly materialized. It doesn’t to me look anything like David with a thin piece of cloth round his face, or indeed like David without anything round his face. From a distance, the whole head does look like an indistinct blob, but perhaps what you’d expect if not fully materialized.
I suspect the reluctance of many mediums (not just David) to be filmed and tested is that when this has happened in the past with other mediums it just keeps going on and on. More and more people want to test for themselves, there’s no end to it. When pronounced genuine, other people want to test because they don’t accept the verdict.
I hope, when David’s mediumship develops further, it will be possible to see him in lighted conditions and to film him. Already there are photographs of him producing ectoplasm, one is featured on the home page of Circle of the Silver Cord. Of course some people will say it’s cheesecloth or something he has somehow managed to smuggle into the room and stuff in his mouth or up his nose (while bound and gagged) or an accomplice has done it. They could say the same about Jack Webber or a lot of other mediums too of course.
This is why it is so difficult to produce really convincing evidence in pictures or film. People can always say it was faked.
Hi Tony,
Like any good researcher I have a copy of the full video taken by that special low light camera. Naturally I will never publish this anywhere as it is copyright to COSC, I would imagine there are many many copies of this in existence so you should be able to see this without trouble.
Now I raise this just to highlight an inconsistency. I note in many places on this thread a comment that as William was 6 foot 2 inches and much taller than David then with the voice coming much higher it has to be a different entity a Spirit Guide.
I see a lot of agreement on this point. Yet in the video from which this picture you are arguing about is taken in the sequence directly before we see Chris Hood the circle leader walking over to the cabinet. A look at the images shows that he would be about 6 inches taller than the figure who we see in the picture you are talking about with what appears to be shoes peeping out beneath the curtains and a blob for a head..
It is inconsistencies such as this that cause some of our problems.
Hi Jim,
Perhaps this extract relating to Florence Cook’s mediumship may help you to understand better the fluctuations that may occur depending on the energies available for the Spirit Team to work with…obviously not going to be the same at every seance due to variables i.e. health of medium/sitters, mind set of medium/sitters, number of sitters etc. etc.
“A 15 year old [Florence] Cook, alone in Crookes’ house with Crookes’ friends and family as witnesses, was said to have materialized the spirit of Katie King, who walked about, talked, allowed herself to be weighed and measured, and even held the family’s baby (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 241). The sessions were held in the dark, because Spiritualists believe that materialization requires very dim surroundings to succeed, though occasionally some red light was used and some photographs were taken. As is apparently typical of materialized spirits, Katie’s exact height and weight varied.”
Hope this sheds some light for you?
Sincerely,
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
In honesty I have not heard this explanationever. I missed the point when I originally read it.I also note that you are not quoting Sir William Crookes “Researches in Spiritualism” directly which is , of course, the key volume. As you may understand I have done a huge amount of research in this area. Indeed we have to remember that because Sir William Crookes was caught out by a wonderful trick played by Anna Eva Fay we must always look carefully at his early research. Indeed in his research upon DD Home it was DD Home and Sergent Cox who pushed the non spirit intervention to come up with the idea of Psychic Force to explain what we may now call telekenesis.
My belief in his work comes from the outstanding photographs of Katie King taken by the wonders of Magnesium Flare. Now given all the argument upon here in support of David Thompson’s non use of Thermography or infra red, as being too dangerous for any medium, then the fact Florence Cook survived, entirely unharmed, should implicitly mean that she had to be a fraud. howevr, I am willing to accept that photographic proof however.
In effect what you are saying is that in a Materialisation seance the Spirits will vary significantly in size and height. Therefore that it is quite acceptable that William can be 6 foot two inches on this trip to Spain but appear in that video as around 5 foot 6 inches, a height estimated by reference to the comparitive height of Chris Hood from the opening sequences of the video (Close to David Thompson’s own height a fact that is disturbing when defending physical mediumship to outside sceptics). in honesty I have never heard this argument before, that in one seance our loved one’s may be midgets and in another they may be giants.
Could you please give me some more recent research on this and the references, books articles etc? I am fascinated by this possibility maybe Simon or Paul Barker could also elucidate us
Hello Jim,
In answer to your request may I refer you to Harry Edwards book “The Mediumship of Jack Webber”…page 94…chapter 17…entitled materialised forms, heads, hands, etc…he writes:-
“The first phase of Mr Webber’s mediumship to produce materialized forms was the creation of heads only, which were illuminated by means of the luminous plaques. With this developed came hands, that were felt and seen by the sitters. Looking into the heads full faced, they are seen to be of perfect formation; hair, eyes, nose and a mouth being fully physical. The faces are often full-sized, but now and again are much smaller than any normal head, being about four to five inches high. A white ectoplasmic cowl invariably surrounds the head and the shape of shoulders and garments can be glimpsed in the illumination. The period of formation occupies only a few seconds. When the plaque first illuminates the head it may not be perfectly formed, but it rapidly assumes the correct features. The heads remain in the proximity of the medium, probably linked to the medium by an ectoplasmic connection. They can, however, travel about six feet from the medium in any direction.”
The rest of this chapter goes on to describe how the materialised forms present themselves, in a darkened room, during public seances, by light from an illuminating plaque…it also mentions that red light was actually being used in their home development circle where positive results were being achieved.
I’m not sure how many examples you would like Jim…but I do hope you have the “white crow” senario in mind. I will, however, give you one more example which you may wish to consider…this one which I experienced, first hand, when sitting at Scole with Robin & Sandra Foy (in the dark). I was asked to keep very still as someone I knew wanted to come close to me…without thinking I lifted my right hand to scratch an itch on my cheek and immediately felt a hand grip my wrist and push my hand back onto my lap…as you can imagine this was a bit of a surprise. I was asked by Mrs Bradshaw, one of the main controls, to look directly ahead and wait for my surprise visitor. About twelve inches in front of my face a disc of light appeared, the disc gradually began to form into the shape of a head…all the usual features of a face began to take shape…I could see a mouth, a nose, eyes and around the head the outline of slicked back hair began to form…the eyes glistened with moisture and the lips moved but no sound came from them. This vision lasted for about 30-40 seconds…the head was surrounded by light (not an ectoplasmic cowl as described by H.E.) it was the face of my uncle Jack Webber…and it was about 6 inches high.
Also worthy of mentioning, I feel, is the description of Ectoplasm given on page 90 of the same book:-
“The author has been told that the formations, as photographed, are composed of cells and that they possess nerves and capillaries and are therefore sensitive. Whatever form ectoplasm may take, it is obviously of human content – it proceeds from the living body and returns to be absorbed into the body. It must therefore be living matter”…Think about it!…this may be the reason why ray emitting vision devices are not allowed into the seance room of PM’s working with ectoplasm. Further chapters of this book also give interesting insight into how the Guides cared for the medium’s well being.
Hope this helps to answer some of your questions Jim 🙂
Sincerely,
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
With all due respect to the White Crow theory Mr Thompson was not, at the time of the filming, a beginner. He is a Physical Medium of many years experience confident enough of his abilities to present them in a public seance whwre there was apparently plenty of energy and to do this for a fairly substantial renumeration. This is very different to the circumstances desribed in the quites you have given from the book “The Mediumship of Jack Webber”.
I also note that the Scole experiment was just that, an experiment and as I remember it involved the use of Energy not Ectoplasm. I have run into some interesting examples of the energetic production of faces in our platform Medium development group and realise how different this is.
With all respect Denzil, no one was at all unhappy with the evidence in that video until I raised the issue of a height discrepancy. Indeed, maybe Paul Barker can help me here, but in my first hearing about the purported William Charles Cadwell, who never existed as claimed (and of course COSC got Guy Lyon Playfair to unsuccessfully track the very same dates that Lis did), I am fairly confident his substantial height, standing six foot two, for a man of Victorian times was never mentioned. Therefore it was not an issue when the shorter William first appeared in this video.
in the end all of the disparities which have been raised and all the issues which cause a problem are very real. Is it not time that the supporters of Mr Thompson looked at them and considered what they may mean. Instead we seem to be getting more extreme arguments to try disproving or discrediting the facts, albeit these efforts appear to be by well meaning people.
Remember we who are asking these questions are either committed Spiritualists, or believe in Physical Mediumship, they accept that Mr Thompson is not a fraud, at least on the basis of what we know to date and despite these issues which cause such problems. Were he to prove not to be genuine the damage to the people who support the evidence for the proof of survival would be devastating allowing the sceptics to have a real free hit. It is something that is unthinkable to all committed people.
Sadly, however, the issues listed add weight to the clamour of the sceptical investigators. It would be good if these issues could be dealt with by the involvement of sympathetic researchers.
Hello Jim,
I’m not sure whether you got the gist regarding the White Crow theory…
In mentioning this I was asking “in a flock of black crows, how many white crows would you need to see before you would accept the fact that white crows exist?” That is to say how much evidence do you require, regarding miniature materialisations, before you would be able to accept the fact that they can actually exist?…and that William may have been at point in his materialisation when he was still forming in height…I’m sure your extensive investigations into this subject must have brought you to know by now that they don’t just instantly appear full size in the room…they grow gradually.
You said… “He [David Thompson] is a Physical Medium of many years experience confident enough of his abilities to present them in a public seance where there was apparently plenty of energy and to do this for a fairly “substantial renumeration”. This is very different to the circumstances desribed in the quotes you have given from the book “The Mediumship of Jack Webber”.
Jim…just this one statment alone substantiates, to me anyway, that there is perhaps a certain amount of jealousy eminating from your good self?
Yes, David is a physical medium of some years and experience but the number of home circles and experimental public demonstrations he gives, in comparison to Jack Webber, is miniscule.
The number of Jack Webber seances, during which many materialisations were formed and shown by means of illumunated plaques, is recorded by Harry Edwards as being in the region of 200 a year. The materialised forms I related to, recorded by Harry Edwards, were all from seances and home circles conducted in the last 18 months of Jack’s mediumship and life…i.e when, as I think most people would recognise, was at the height of his mediumship.
Now Jim I’m not quite sure why you would introduce the subject of David’s so called “substantial remuneration”…to this forum when what is deing discussed is to do with his mediumship…unless of course this holds underlying issues for you. Whatever David charges or makes from his demonstrations is absolutely nothing to do with anyone else except David. Look at the bigger picture Jim …whatever he receives, particularly when travelling, he has to cover transport (flights and/or car), sustainance, lodging etc and from the rest he has to pay his taxes and cost of living in his home…which I am led to believe doesn’t hold the greatest of kerb appeal. He told me when we met in July that he currently allows himself up to a maximum of 40 seances per year…and that figure includes his home/development circles. May I suggest and I hope you would agree that this wouldn’t be the kind of life any of us on this forum would wish for ourselves or our loved ones???
Sincerely,
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
I am familiar with the concept of William James and one White Crow. However I must point out that the Medium concerned was an exceptional talent who subjected themselves to extensive testing over a very long period of time. I believe this is the minimum requirement for a Medium to become the one White Crow. Conversely it is also the name of an excellent book by R Laurence Moore “In Search of White Crows” one of the focuses of this book is the need for psychical research to isolate the “White Crows’. Once again you draw us back to the need for research to insure that what we have are White Crows.
I point out that you comment how much evidence do I need, of miniature materialisations and requote the book about your uncle. However the specific quote you referred to, as part of the White Crow theory, was based upon the earliest days of his Mediumship not about all of his Mediumship as you have suddenly included. I also pointed out that an energy group could not be compared to ectoplasm and used to justify miniature Materialisations.
I note your point about William and Materialisation but you must note that in the video William had fully materialised and appeared to be seen and photographed. This exercise was the major point of that séance and the film had received wide advance notification. The still of that exact point in the video is the one that appears on the COSC site so they must have been pretty happy with it too. The good thing is we are in total agreement that there is a substantial height difference between the claims for William now and what he was then.
I do not think you will be able to find enough White Crows for me to not to note once again that this is a discrepancy in facts. Clearly we must each decide our view of this matter, as most others will
To quote you Denzil I said
“You said… “He [David Thompson] is a Physical Medium of many years experience confident enough of his abilities to present them in a public seance where there was apparently plenty of energy and to do this for a fairly “substantial renumeration”. This is very different to the circumstances desribed in the quotes you have given from the book “The Mediumship of Jack Webber”.”
I say
I said this purely because the quote you used was a beginner Medium compared to one who is confident in his abilities to become a professional one. That was the point of my comment, to charge for something you must feel that you are competent at that skill. No I am not jealous I have already gone on record, earlier on this thread, as saying that Mr Thompson has the freedom and right to charge whatever he wishes to. What I am saying is that an enormous number of issues and questions have arisen and none of them been answered or rebutted satisfactorily.
Denzil said
“Yes, David is a physical medium of some years and experience but the number of home circles and experimental public demonstrations he gives, in comparison to Jack Webber, is miniscule.”
I say
But not the Jack Webber at the time the quote you used related to. Ye subsequently he performed many séances dedicating much of his time to his work, to research and he allowed infrared cameras into the séance room
Denzil said
“ Now Jim I’m not quite sure why you would introduce the subject of David’s so called “substantial remuneration”…to this forum when what is deing discussed is to do with his mediumship…unless of course this holds underlying issues for you.”
I say, I have already explained this but for the third time on here I state David can and should charge what he likes. I was using it just to contrast his professional experience against the quote you used from the beginning of Jack Webbers Mediumship. A quote used to justify the change in size of Materialisations
Denzil said
“Whatever David charges or makes from his demonstrations is absolutely nothing to do with anyone else except David. Look at the bigger picture Jim …whatever he receives, particularly when travelling, he has to cover transport (flights and/or car), sustainance, lodging etc and from the rest he has to pay his taxes and cost of living in his home…which I am led to believe doesn’t hold the greatest of kerb appeal. He told me when we met in July that he currently allows himself up to a maximum of 40 seances per year…and that figure includes his home/development circles. May I suggest and I hope you would agree that this wouldn’t be the kind of life any of us on this forum would wish for ourselves or our loved ones???”
Very interesting Denzil, I would never have chosen to take it to this particular issue but, from the material I have, I would suggest you should cross check some of the numbers involved, charges, minimum requirements, who actually pays the expenses etc. we need to be specific if such an issue is raised. However that is not relevant to the séance issue and I believe this is a matter entirely up to Mr Thompson and his customers. It is a private matter for them and of no relevance to us at all. David has chosen to become a professional and I wish he and Christine all the best with that.
Jim
Hello Jim,
In your reply you persistanly refer to my comparisons as relating to the beginning of Jack Webber’s mediumship…the information relating to Jack’s mediumship, contained in Harry Edward’s book to which I refer, quite clearly relates to the 14 months from the November 1938 to December 1939 during which time he was living next door to and under the direction of H.E. This was just 3 months before he passed to the higher life. Jack’s mediumship actually began some 7-8 years earlier…and he gave up work to start giving public demonstrations around 1936. So I’m not quite sure how you determine that my references relate to the beginning of his mediumship when H.E’s book obviously relates to materialisations etc during the 14 moths towards the end…I hope you can now bring yourself to agree that my references relate to a time at the pinnacle of Jack’s mediumship and not the beginning?
I also hope you can now agree that my earlier reference to Katie King measuring in at different heights and weights, alongside of my comparison relating to faces/heads etc manifesting (sometimes full size and other times smaller) during the “latter” part of Jack Webber’s mediumship, does provide a more than adequate comparison to show that size differences can and do occur with spirit forms materialising during a seance where ectoplasm is used.
Sincerely,
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
I think, given the little we know about Materialisations I would have to accept the possibility of some variation, however I still feel it is a real stretch to suggest this as the reason the WCC in the picture COSC chose to display is a full 8 inches shorter than the WCC who appeared in Spain (accepting of course we have no real idea who the spirit is that is WCC which may in teh end be the source of our problem).
Now this would give a huge problem if a relative materialised, because with such a height disparity the intonation, absolutely unique information, use of vocabulary and grammar would have to be spot on. I still am unwilling to agree with this hypothesis because it is yet another reason to suggest that dark seances are of extremely limited value.
However I do notice from the thumbs up and down we seem to be chatting to ourselves here now, much as I am enjoying the exchange maybe we should leave it behind now.
Jim
Simon
You said
“Well, if mediums are different and react differently to infra red, then how would using only ONE medium as a “guinea pig” (!!!) show how other mediums would react to it?”
It wouldn’t and I never claimed it would, but they would have to start somewhere. Someone would have been the first. Like a medicine trial it would give an indication of the likely effect on people of similar development and constitution and in similar circumstances.
You said
“So, if we expand your line of reasoning to take this into account, it suggest that every time a medium was subjected to new external stimuli such as flash light, sound recording equipment, red light or infra red, then spirit were just taking a gamble that this stimuli wouldn’t effect their health and well-being!”
But that’s exactly what they probably are doing. They are taking a calculated risk. That’s why there is all the caution and why were are having this discussion! Every time they attempt to introduce light there is a risk so we have been told. When a new medication is formulated human trials are commissioned after every other test has been carried out, but there is still a risk.
You said
“I’m sorry, but this suggestion is silly and rather disrespectful to the spirit people who have the well-being of the medium as their highest priority at all times. And your inference that they would treat them as some kind of ‘lab rat’ in order to experiment upon is preposterous.”
Its not silly or disrespectful at all. If you accept the widely held view that the introduction of light is a risk to the medium then spirit are indeed taking a risk, albeit a calculated one, and obviously one considered worth taking.
Take Helen Duncan and Alec Harris as examples. In these cases the risk was well demonstrated. Spirit were taking the risk that a member of the public would not do something silly and the worst happened. They are taking a risk every time ectoplasm is produced.
You said
“Criticising a medium and criticising and analysing the REASONS given for the lack of progress towards detailed video film, are two different things! I have not criticised Thompson“
You say that then go on to criticism him to Tony Papard in the same .posting! Your postings are full of criticism.
You said
“I don’t believe video film would provide “total proof” of anything. By it’s nature, it cannot irrefutably rule out fraud. The hardened sceptics would certainly not acknowledge it as Spiritualism’s Holy Grail of survival evidence.”
I didn’t claim video footage would be total proof either. That’s why I mentioned testimonies from respected scientists and cast iron proof-whatever they would entail. In other words something that would convince orthodox scientists. Just imagine the impact endorsement by all the leading scientists like Stephen Hawkins, Richard Dawson etc would have. I can guarantee that those who have been using religion all their lives to control and manipulate people would not be happy bunnies.
Simon wrote: “I know of one medium who despite the instructions and encouragement of the guides towards filming, decided to ignore their advice”
Can you give us any more info on this case Simon? The medium’s identity if possible or at least why they decided not to experiment with filming?
More interestingly, I wonder if there have been any mediums encouraged by the guides NOT to film or photograph, who have gone ahead anyway.
There was one incident in the new film depicting Scole – The Afterlife Experiments – when the narrator shows an infra-red clip of a table tipping done apparently despite directions not to film. But I am unsure whether it was the seance organisors or guides who blocked filming.
On a separate issue – does anyone know a solution to the problem of copying a quote and pasting it on these replies? It just won’t work – annoying also because sometimes I like to compile a response offsite and then paste it here.
Dave, thank you for your comment. We are aware of the lack of a copy and paste facility, and understand that quoting from comments would be a lot simpler if we had one. I have asked Magnus to look into the problem. Sue
Hi Tony,
I realise that there may be a few more points of interest concerning the photograph and the video. As you may remember the video came from David’s 2007 visit to the UK, sponsored by the Zerdin fellowship as I remember. Now this film was, on the COSC site, mentioned as one of the things that would be achieved during this trip. After it was taken COSC said that this and a report upon the dangers of passive infra red would be given to them by Ron Pearson and they would publish this. Now Ron is frequently promoted by COC and Victor Zammit as a supporter of David’s Materialisations.
Yet when no report was forthcoming and some time had elapsed I asked a friend, who was a mutual friend of Ron, to check these matters. Naturally I have a copy of an email in which Ron confirmed that the rest light video we are discussing was scientifically unsound he also confirmed his scientific opinion that passive infra red was neither harmful to ectopasm or the medium.
Jim
Now 2007 was even more interesting because it was one of a few visits by Harry Houdini. Lets us forget the problems of the accent involved, where the original voice was Southern American not Jewish New York ( shades of the latest problem reported by 4 certified National Spriritualist Association of Churches Mediums about Abraham Lincoln in Florida on Roy Stemman’s comments). The problem was he promised to bring through something as an apport to hand to the Magic Circle in New York to prove his survival. Now all of these records remain on the internet or in individual vaults.
Now the sad part is that “Houdini” returned but the Magic Circle has always been based in London. Additionally the “evidence” amounted to a commerative item which was produced well after his death. As I have said all of this evidence is well maintained by a number of people.
So we have more contradictions.
Denzil has said that he knew David many years ago, when Paul Barker was circle leader. Paul says that none of this would have happened upon his watch, so what is happening now? What has occured since 2006 when COSC began? Are all the original COSC members still in place, especially the circle leader Chris Hood and his wife the business manager. When COSC started it is clear that Mr Thompson was the only person with expertise in Physical mediumship.
Surely whether you or I believe in the reality of David’s mediumship we should join in with others such as hoodcj1 on Roys site to ask that David agrees to independent research. I note that on Roy’s site even Tony P has suggested that Victor Zammit is too involved and should step back.
I have one other question which I would like everyone to consider.
I think that all Spiritualists on this forum would regard the Great Spirit as a benevolent creator. Now why would our guides, who are the representative of this creator, allow the mediums to be placed in the overtly dangerous situations that we are told they are in, just to give proof of survival. Surely when we see that the evidence given is less than that by an experienced Mmntal medium we must query why.
Our pioneers have already stated, in the links given on this thread, they disagree with Dark Seances (e.g. Emma Hardinge and D D Home). So what spirits are we dealing with, given we know Willaim Charles Cadwell and Timothy are not who they claim, is there something occuring which we should. in fact, step away from.
It is an interesting thought, if Spirit is benevolent and the guides wise then what dangers really occur in physcal mediumship and why?
Hi Jim,
You said “I think that all Spiritualists on this forum would regard the Great Spirit as a benevolent creator.”
No disrespect Jim but that is your concept of God…you shouldn’t presume to think what the rest of us think!
Jim also said “Now why would our guides, who are the representative of this creator, allow the mediums to be placed in the overtly dangerous situations that we are told they are in”
Jim, I don’t think you’ll find that the Guides are the ones who are allowing the mediums to be placed in overtly dangerous situations or otherwise…it appears to me that they are the ones doing their level best to protect their Mediums from the harm that the ignorance of others might cause.
Sincerely,
Denzil
Hi Tony,
I noted that you say in an earlier post “Re the rather unsatisfactory video footage and still from it of David’s guide William materializing. It is a great pity for some reason the camera was apparently not rolling when William came fully out of the cabinet curtain, whether fully or only partly materilaized.”
I have already noted that Ron Pearson says this is scientifically unsound. However in the original report there was no mention of the cameras still rolling, his head was revealed and he never stepped out of the curtains as clearly reported bt Chris Hood, circle leader at the time in 2007.
I wonder wher this add on came from to contradict the archival reports?
Simon mentioned that he was given permission to use a camera in a seance room but the medium would not allow it. It would be interesting o know a little more about the circumstances of the permission and the refusal.
Reply to Hilary Penn: No, I’ve never had the opportunity yet to sit with any other physical mediums. A session in Streatham advertised by Zerdin Phenomenal had sold out, but a friend told me it was later canceled because of sickness. I’d love to attend a Stewart Alexander or some other physical seance. I’ve attended two by David Thompson now. I have been to several of Colin Fry’s clairvoyance meetings, one in Wimbledon Spiritualist Church. He is also a physical medium as you know, but I haven’t sat at one of his physical seances. However I got a very evidential message from Colin in Fairfield Halls from my maternal grandmother. It was so detailed and related things he couldn’t have possibly known about from reading my blogs, etc. such as intimate details of problems with my mother’s kitchen and exactly where I’d damaged the working surface. This now appears in my blogs following Colin’s message, but didn’t appear anywhere in writing before the evening of clairvoyance.
Tony Papard:
“The dreaded ‘black blobs’ question…. yes, could be the medium’s shoes, but could equally well be the shoes of William. Or do Spirits appear naked or shoeless?”
Tony, you are missing something. As Jim states: “… his head was revealed and he never stepped out of the curtains as clearly reported bt Chris Hood…”
So – what would be the point of wasting ectoplasm (and therefore energy) on creating shoes that nobody is going to see? And what would be the point of deliberately creating these shoes in a different colour – a colour nobody is going to see?
I’d be interested in your explanation.
Tony Papard:
“And in the close-up of the head I can clearly see the features of a face, apparently partly materialized.”
Tony, the close up of the head posted on the Silver Cord website has been deliberately altered. It is NOT an accurate representation of the original video still picture. You are basing your claim on a manipulated image. I would like to know why the Silver Cord website is claiming it is just a “close up”, while failing to admit that it has also been digitally altered.
Please view my analysis:
Tony Papard:
“It doesn’t to me look anything like David with a thin piece of cloth round his face, or indeed like David without anything round his face.”
Please view my analysis of this claim:
Peter Raggett:
“Well, if mediums are different and react differently to infra red, then how would using only ONE medium as a “guinea pig” (!!!) show how other mediums would react to it?”
It wouldn’t and I never claimed it would…”
I never claimed that you did. I pointed out that for your argument to be logical – EVERY single medium that has introduced a new stimulus to their seance room would be acting as a “guinea pig”.
To me, that is ridiculous. Spirit don’t play around with the medium’s well-being in such a cavalier manner. They know what they are doing.
Peter Raggett:
“Like a medicine trial it would give an indication of the likely effect on people of similar development and constitution and in similar circumstances.”
But as you yourself stated, mediums are different. What may affect one medium adversely, may not affect another in the same way. Therefore, your argument that one medumistic “guinea pig” can be used as a test subject for all other mediums, falls down.
Peter Raggett:
“You said
“So, if we expand your line of reasoning to take this into account, it suggest that every time a medium was subjected to new external stimuli such as flash light, sound recording equipment, red light or infra red, then spirit were just taking a gamble that this stimuli wouldn’t effect their health and well-being!”
But that’s exactly what they probably are doing.”
How do you know?
My opinion is that the spirit team know the bilogy of the medium and the effects of any new stimulus introduced into the seance room before hand. They do not treat the medium like some ‘lab rat’ and hope for the best!
Peter Raggett:
“Every time they attempt to introduce light there is a risk so we have been told.”
Yes – IF the light is switched on when it shouldn’t be! That’s an entirely different matter altogether.
Let me ask you this: Has there ever been a record of a physical medium being harmed due to a direct instruction from one of their spirit guides? Maybe in this question you will find the answer as to whether guides ever take any risks with the well-being of their mediums…
Peter Raggett:
“You said
“I’m sorry, but this suggestion is silly and rather disrespectful to the spirit people who have the well-being of the medium as their highest priority at all times. And your inference that they would treat them as some kind of ‘lab rat’ in order to experiment upon is preposterous.”
—–
“Its not silly or disrespectful at all.”
I disagree. Claiming the guides would use their medium as a “guinea pig” shows a distinct lack of understanding as to the moral character, spiritual development and love that the guides have. They would not do anything to endanger the health of their medium. You are suggresting that they would do so.
Peter Raggett:
“If you accept the widely held view that the introduction of light is a risk to the medium then spirit are indeed taking a risk, albeit a calculated one, and obviously one considered worth taking.”
You are completely missing the point. Light is only a risk if it is used when it shouldn’t be!. If the guides instruct its use, they deem it safe. This is exactly the same as for infra red and video filming.
Peter Raggett:
“Take Helen Duncan and Alec Harris as examples. In these cases the risk was well demonstrated. Spirit were taking the risk that a member of the public would not do something silly and the worst happened. They are taking a risk every time ectoplasm is produced.”
This is a different issue altogether. The guides cannot be held responsible for the actions of others who disobey their instructions.
You are moving the goalposts here, Peter. The issue under original discussion between us was the reason why the guides wouldn’t introduce detailed video filming. It had nothing to do with the stupid actions of other people.
Peter Raggett:
“You said
“Criticising a medium and criticising and analysing the REASONS given for the lack of progress towards detailed video film, are two different things! I have not criticised Thompson“
You say that then go on to criticism him to Tony Papard in the same .posting!
Kindly quote my criticisms of Thompson “for the lack of progress towards detailed video film” in that reply. You won’t find any.
Peter Raggett:
“Your postings are full of criticism.”
If asking questions and being objective about Thompson’s mediumship and the photographic evidence (instead of blindly accepting what is claimed) can be seen as criticism, then I’m guilty as charged.
Peter Raggett:
“You said
“I don’t believe video film would provide “total proof” of anything. By it’s nature, it cannot irrefutably rule out fraud. The hardened sceptics would certainly not acknowledge it as Spiritualism’s Holy Grail of survival evidence.”
I didn’t claim video footage would be total proof either. That’s why I mentioned testimonies from respected scientists and cast iron proof-whatever they would entail.”
Then we are agreed that spirit are not delaying progress in filming because of some concern that mankind isn’t ready for it.
Dave Haith:
“Simon wrote: “I know of one medium who despite the instructions and encouragement of the guides towards filming, decided to ignore their advice”
Can you give us any more info on this case Simon? The medium’s identity if possible or at least why they decided not to experiment with filming?”
Sorry David, but out of respect to the medium concerned and who I hold in high regard, I do not think it appropriate to name them here. This thread is about David Thompson. The issue you refer to has been discussed at length elsewhere and shall remain in the past.
Surfice it to say that I respect the medium’s reasons for not pursuing filming, but I disagree with them on the matter.
Reply to Simon: Your pictoral analysis of the still and close-up look pretty impressive, but it was a video clip. I did see the whole clip once, but can’t remember exactly what it looked like. Is it not possible the close-up was taken from a later still in the short video clip? I can’t say why shoes would be formed if William wasn’t to come outside the curtain, possibly shoes are formed first, I don’t know. As I say, the video and still are very unsatisfactory, but I wouldn’t dismiss Thompson’s mediumship on the basis of one poor video clip, a still and a close-up.
There is another possibility which I’m reluctant to raise, but people here will no doubt recall the ‘Lincoln’ controversy when Colin Fry was performing physical mediumship under that name many years ago. Lights went on during the seance and he was seen standing holding a Spirit trumpet, which in the darkness the sitters had thought was levitated by Spirit. Fry is undoubtedly a gifted medium, certainly of the clairvoyant variety. He also channels Magnus, his guide, and videos of this show him talking in a strange voice, not altogether convincing, rather like Thompson in trance talks in William’s voice. Fry’s explanation of the Lincoln trumpet incident is that he was manipulated in trance by a mischievous Spirit called Daniel I believe. I do hope David Thompson isn’t being so manipulated at times. Also that the Spirits he materializes are who they say they are, though no medium can guarantee this.
We know Spirit can materialize and dematerialize things, including David’s plastic ties. Whatever is happening at is seances I don’t think it is trickery on the part of David and his partner or circle. However do mischievous Spirits manage to throw spanners in the work of gifted mediums just to confuse us and cause disputes like this? There is also the aspirin/AIDs/Downs Syndrome controversy. I was only quoting from a statement made by David himself, that this conversation by William referred to research being done in USA relating to aspirin for HIV sufferers (not to cure them) and a possible connexion between HIV virus and Downs Syndrome. However if it is on record William recommended aspirin as a cure for both, that would indicate ignorance on his part or a mischievous entity. I do find it hard to believe David said this out of trance, or to tie string around cancer to stop it spreading. Surely if he did and it was on record that would have discredited him then and there?
Tony Papard:
“Your pictoral analysis of the still and close-up look pretty impressive, but it was a video clip.”
The same video clip from which you claimed to be able to “clearly” deduce “the features of a face, apparently partly materialized.”
Tony Papard:
“Is it not possible the close-up was taken from a later still in the short video clip?
Not if you go by what is published on the Silver Cord website. Two still pictures are published. Underneath the wide shot is the close up shot of ‘William’s’ head. It is captioned: “CLOSE UP OF THE WIDE SHOT showing the outline of William’s head.”
Since they refer to the “wide shot”, and the only wide shot is the picture published above the close up, it is clearly infered that the two pictures are the same still.
Tony Papard:
“I wouldn’t dismiss Thompson’s mediumship on the basis of one poor video clip, a still and a close-up.”
Neither would I – but they certainly pose some questions.
Tony Papard:
I channel spirits myself, and one has come through claiming to be Tim and saying that people are trying to disrupt David’s mediumship, skeptics. He says the filming of William was cut short as it was emitting infra-red…”
As far as I’m aware, the film was taken by a normal video camera, not an infra red camera. It would therefore not emit any more infra red than the sitters in the room.
Tony Papard:
“…and the picture wasn’t manipulated.”
See this large analysis:
The picture has either been deliberately manipulated, or the “close up” still is NOT an enlargement of the first one as the Silver Cord website infers.
I channel spirits myself, and one has come through claiming to be Tim and saying that people are trying to disrupt David’s mediumship, skeptics. He says the filming of William was cut short as it was emitting infra-red, that the shoes were William’s and the picture wasn’t manipulated. Also that they did exist on Earth and that dates have been altered to confuse people. Of course I have no way of knowing if this Tim is real or a Spirit imposter myself, so people must make their own judgment who they believe.
However my own partner, who communicated at the seance on August 15th, came through and said that speaking there was like using a mechanical voice, such as Stephen Hawking has to use, so you can only make it sound like your own with a lot of practice. The name ‘Sandy’ (a friend’s dog’) was mentioned because they tried to make the dog materialize and bark so I’d know for sure it was real, as there was no dog in the seance room.
Unfortunately the dog didn’t manage to bark, but that was the reason his name was mentioned. A dog did run round the seance room and bark a few days before a previous Thompson seance I attended at the Banyan Retreat in Ashford back in June. There was no dog in the seance room then either, so presumably according to the doubters David, free of his bonds, was running round barking like a dog.
Tony, I respectfully suggest that you try using a digital program to examine the recording of that seance where Sandy the dog was mentioned, if indeed you do have a copy of the recording, which David always makes available to sitters.
The reason I suggest this is that when I did this, using a program called “Audacity”, I was able to hear a lot more than was first thought to be there. After splitting the audio recording of my brother-in-law, who came through during a David Thopmson Physical seance, into small parts, I was able to clearly hear barking in the background which sounded very much like it came from our dog who had passed. Also in the background, just before the barking starts, the phrase “I can see” is also clearly audible.
I have put this in MP3 format and you are welcome to a copy if you wish.
In other words, there may be much more to be heard if you listen carefully to the recording of the seance using similar software to what I used. Maybe you will hear Sandy barking… further evidence from Spirit.
Billy Stewart.
Tony wrote:
“I can’t say why shoes would be formed if William wasn’t to come outside the curtain, possibly shoes are formed first, I don’t know.”
While not wanting deny it is possible that a materializing spirit entity could form shoes before the rest of their form, it does seem somewhat unlikely when one considers the way materializations have generally been created in the past by earlier apparently genuine physical mediums.
From both the original video, which I have seen a number of times, and also from the stills, it is clear that there appears to be a complete human-like form behind the cabinet curtains, that is, not just a head and feet, but also legs, torso and arms. Indeed, the arms of the apparently materialized entity are obviously grasping the curtain to keep it closed except for that part where the head is peeping out.
This logically suggests, if this is an actual materialization taking place, that either the fully formed materialized entity may have intended to move out from the curtain at some stage but for some unexplained reason did not, or for some inexplicable reason the spirit entity created a fully formed body rather unnecessarily if they didn’t intend to move out from behind the curtain. Either way, it seems odd that the entity felt it necessary to grasp the curtain in such a way in order to only allow their head to appear.
What also seems clear is that the only other explanation that could be offered if neither of the above possibilities is correct is that it really wasn’t a materialized spirit at all, but rather a person standing behind the curtain and holding its sides together to hide their body while they moved their head out from the curtain.
I personally doubt the low/rest light video was emitting infra-red rays that resulted in the filming being cut short. I understand from earlier reports by David Thompson’s circle that method of filming was deliberately chosen because it would avoid that perceived problem. There is no infra-red light implications with this kind of apparatus, and the original report did not suggest that filming was abruptly abandoned.
Tony also states:
“As I say, the video and still are very unsatisfactory, but I wouldn’t dismiss Thompson’s mediumship on the basis of one poor video clip, a still and a close-up.”
I don’t believe anyone is dismissing Thompson’s mediumship on that basis at all. There is discussion about a range of apparent inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and uncertainties of which the issue arising from the video is just one. To discuss these matters does not mean Thompson’s mediumship is being dismissed. Indeed, one might equally say, it is by discussion, and consideration, of those concerns, many people are actually trying to resolve their uncertainties in order not to dismiss his mediumship. While others may be more sceptical than that, many do genuinely take the view that these are matters that simply need to be resolved and adequate explanations given, so that concerns about his mediumship can be overcome.
Tony also raised another issue by suggesting, albeit reluctantly, the possibility of David Thompson being, at times, “manipulated” while in the trance state by a mischievous spirit. In terms of David Thompson’s mediumship, since I do not intend to get drawn into any other mediums explanations of an event about which I have no personal knowledge, such an argument unfortunately suggests a rather strange idea. The spirit control ‘William’ is apparently consistently William in personality and manner, but may on occasions not be William at all, but instead a mischievous spirit impersonating William. Somehow I doubt that David Thompson would be at all happy with such an interpretation of events.
Tony asks the question whether “mischievous Spirits manage to throw spanners in the work of gifted mediums just to confuse us and cause disputes like this?”
Such a possibility presupposes that mischievous spirits are somehow able to take over control of the entranced medium, supersede the usual spirit control, and run amuck without the medium’s spirit workers being able to do anything about it. That argument both puzzles me and ultimately disturbs as it would appear to suggest that those in the spirit realms in charge of the work of physical mediums are really not able to control lesser, mischievous, or ill-intentioned spirits, in the séance room.
If so, why on earth are we wasting our time continuing with dark séances to achieve physical mediumship where false entities may deceive us and the medium? Especially since, it would appear that we cannot know when it might be the real spirit and when it might be the work of a false spirit.
There is also something rather illogical with this reasoning about inconsistencies that occur in the séance room, as we are left with the argument that when we accept what is said or done it must be a genuine spirit, but if we find what is said or done appears false or faulty it must have been because unknown to the medium or anyone else in the room a false mischievous spirit has entered into the situation. I cannot help but wonder whether this ‘mischievous spirit’ argument is just too convenient an excuse when mediums are caught out cheating, or when the ‘guide’ of the ‘entranced medium’ makes statements that are blatantly false, or erroneous in some way.
As for Tony’s comment that he hopes, “Also that the Spirits (Thompson) materializes are who they say they are, though no medium can guarantee this” it must really be said that first of all, Thompson’s guides and the other alleged spirit communicators do not, in normal terms “materialize” at all. Materialization is by all logic and usual definition where a spirit person appears and is seen to appear and can be identified as being there in a materialized form.
This is not what takes place in David Thompson’s circle, and I do not believe an unseen ‘entity’ jumping up and down on a piece of wood placed on the floor in the séance room constitutes evidence of materialization, nor does an unseen hand placed on someone constitute materialization, no matter how ‘real’ solid and apparently living that hand might be. The simple problem with this is that since no one can see who is jumping up and down making a noise, or whose hand it actually is, whether it is the same or a different size to that of the medium, it does not prove that there really is a ‘materialized’ but unseen spirit in the room as it could equally be someone in the room purporting to be a spirit.
I am not saying that it is a person impersonating a spirit. I am saying when it is all unseen we cannot assume it is a real spirit and not someone impersonating a spirit. We cannot rely on a voice in the dark saying it is a spirit jumping about or touching people as evidence of spirit’s presence.
Tony also made a comment about the aspirin/AIDS/Down’s Syndrome controversy that is worth exploring. He acknowledges that he was merely “quoting from a statement made by David, himself, that this conversation by William referred to research being done in USA relating to aspirin for HIV sufferers (not to cure them) and a possible connexion between HIV virus and Downs Syndrome.”
He adds “However if it is on record William recommended aspirin as a cure for both, that would indicate ignorance on his part or a mischievous entity.”
Since I don’t know which of the statements made by David Thompson Tony is referring to I will not comment on it. I can point out, however, that in the original record there was a clear reference, addressed in relation to a circle member who happened at that time to be pregnant for the first time at a somewhat older age than is often the case for having a first child in which ‘William’ unequivocally drew a relationship between HIV/AIDS and Down’s Syndrome and indeed, suggested that if a woman were to take aspirin in the early stage of their pregnancy it would prevent Down’s syndrome. It was, in reality, apparently ‘wise’ advice William was offering to a member of the circle which if followed could have caused significant harm to that person.
To make this clear: First, HIV/AIDS is caused by a virus, while Down’s Syndrome is a genetic disorder, and I don’t believe there has been any research in America or anywhere else that has suggested that the aids virus could cause Down’s Syndrome or prevent it, nor have any meaningful impact on the prognosis of an HIV/AIDS victim. Second, taking aspirin, or any other medicine in the early stages of pregnancy, will not prevent Down’s Syndrome for the very simple reason that this is a genetic condition that exists within the genetic material and occurs at the time of conception and nothing after that point in time will alter that sad reality. In addition the use of aspirin in pregnancy is not recommended medically except in two very specific conditions and only later in a pregnancy.
As for Tony’s reluctance to believe David Thompson said while not in the trance state that “to tie string around cancer to stop it spreading” and his view that if such a comment “was on record that would have discredited him then and there,” I can only say I sympathise. There are clear and unequivocal statements by reputable people, including David Thompson’s original circle leader, who were present who heard this and other equally disturbing remarks by Thompson’s ‘psychic surgeon’ which make it impossible to doubt this did occur. Quite possibly those who witnessed this did feel it discredited Thompson, but we only have their statement’s that this did occur to rely on and it would seem such a “record” can be dismissed by those who find it too outrageous to believe.
In a later post Tony has referred to having ‘channelled’ a spirit “claiming to be Tim and saying that people are trying to disrupt David’s mediumship, skeptics….Also that they did exist on Earth and that dates have been altered to confuse people.” He acknowledges that he has no way of knowing if this Tim is real or a Spirit imposter and so people must make their own judgement who they believe.
I am happy to go on record as being neither a skeptic nor a person who is trying to “disrupt” David Thompson’s mediumship. While David may feel that by asking questions and by raising the issue about the total lack of evidence for his guides claimed existence is disruptive, it is a false premise to say that it is done with that intent in mind. I don’t think anyone else on this forum has that intention either, so I really cannot accept this alleged spirit’s remarks on that matter.
I am, as are others, concerned about the inconsistencies, in particular the lack of credibility of William and Timothy and their claims about their earthly lives, and do not find the claim that they did exist on Earth but the dates have been altered to confuse people at all credible. Why confuse people by claiming very specific dates of birth and death? Why lie about their earthly existence to confuse people?
What exactly would be the point of doing that other than to deceive everyone including the medium and in reality undermine both their own credibility as spirit guides and the credibility of the medium. How very unfair to their medium. How very hurtful and potentially damaging such an action could be for the medium. Such dishonesty, on which the poor medium has so totally relied, would be in my opinion quite unethical, unspiritual, and mischievous, in which case if this is what has happened with David Thompson’s guides one should have great sympathy for him for being unwittingly duped by false spirits.
Simon
You
“What may affect one medium adversely, may not affect another in the same way. Therefore, your argument that one mediumistic “guinea pig” can be used as a test subject for all other mediums, falls down.”
Me
I didn’t say that. I said someone had to be first to test the water and they would give an INDICATION as to the effect on others of similar disposition. Its impossible to eliminate all risk
You
“So, if we expand your line of reasoning to take this into account, it suggest that every time a medium was subjected to new external stimuli such as flash light, sound recording equipment, red light or infra red, then spirit were just taking a gamble that this stimuli wouldn’t effect their health and well-being!”
Me
But that’s exactly what they probably are doing but in a responsible way. I spent most of my working life in insurance. Its all about risk management. In the real world you cannot eliminate risk. You can only manage it.
You
“How do you know?”
Me
I don’t know. I am surmising. That’s why I used the word PROBABLY.
You
“My opinion is that the spirit team know the biology of the medium and the effects of any new stimulus introduced into the séance room before hand. They do not treat the medium like some ‘lab rat’ and hope for the best!”
Me
And I have used examples to show that spirit do take calculated risks. They advised Alec Harris not to go ahead because they suspected mischief. He went ahead regardless and paid the price. Spirit, with their better foresight, could have refused to proceed to protect him but they went ahead and took a risk.
“Let me ask you this: Has there ever been a record of a physical medium being harmed due to a direct instruction from one of their spirit guides?”
Not to my knowledge. That’s obviously why they are very cautious over the introduction of light and anything else potentially harmful, hence the delays regarding David Thompson introducing light and other recording equipment. It’s a perfectly reasonable assumption.
You
We are all guinea pigs. This whole existence is.
Me
I agree. We are sort of lab rats. We are both the experimenter and the experiment. This whole set up is so that consciousness can explore its own potential. Although we cannot come to any permanent harm because this is a thought experiment, or an illusion, we have to respect and protect the physical body because its in the rule set. However, its only a means to an end.
You
“They would not do anything to endanger the health of their medium. You are suggesting that they would do so.”
Me
I am saying they can and do take calculated risks. That’s what the caution over introducing ectoplasm is all about. By its nature materialisation is a risky business. The Alec Harris incident is an example. Its all about risk management, not risk exclusion which appears to be impossible at present.
You
“You are completely missing the point. Light is only a risk if it is used when it shouldn’t be!. If the guides instruct its use, they deem it safe. This is exactly the same as for infra red and video filming.”
Me
I am not missing the point. I am saying all the delays could be due to the caution over introducing light and/or new technology after they have determined the conditions are right. Nevertheless, they can’t know something is totally safe till they try it out. Theory has to eventually give way to practice and risk.
You
“You are moving the goalposts here, Peter. The issue under original discussion between us was the reason why the guides wouldn’t introduce detailed video filming. It had nothing to do with the stupid actions of other people.”
Me
I used Helen Duncan and Alec Harris as an example of the risk spirit are willing to take in the interests of truth. Spirit are not risk averse. They practise risk management. There is a crucial difference.
You
Then we are agreed that spirit are not delaying progress in filming because of some concern that mankind isn’t ready for it.
Me
I don’t see how you worked that out from my posting! If for instance video footage of Richard Dawkins (and other sceptical scientists and religious leaders) was shown with them being reunited with their departed relatives together with personal testimonies it would provide compelling evidence. Once video footage of materialisation is reliably obtainable and repeatable things could escalate very quickly. That’s when the trouble would really begin because once the genie is out of the bottle you can’t put it back in.
Peter Raggett:
“Simon
You
“What may affect one medium adversely, may not affect another in the same way. Therefore, your argument that one mediumistic “guinea pig” can be used as a test subject for all other mediums, falls down.”
Me
I didn’t say that. I said someone had to be first to test the water and they would give an INDICATION as to the effect on others of similar disposition.”
That is exactly what I said your argument was! Using one medium as a “guinea pig” for other mediums as an “indication” of how other mediums would respond to the same stimulous is flawed since mediums, their biological and nervous systems, the conditions in which they operate and a host of other factors we aren’t even aware of are different.
Peter Raggett:
“You
“So, if we expand your line of reasoning to take this into account, it suggest that every time a medium was subjected to new external stimuli such as flash light, sound recording equipment, red light or infra red, then spirit were just taking a gamble that this stimuli wouldn’t effect their health and well-being!”
Me
But that’s exactly what they probably are doing but in a responsible way. I spent most of my working life in insurance. Its all about risk management. In the real world you cannot eliminate risk. You can only manage it.”
I think comparing the risks in insurance to the risks of physical mediumship are two totally different things!
You keep maintaining that there is a risk to the medium every time a new stimulus is introduced – yet have provided no evidence to support this contention. If, as you suggest, there ARE risks in introducing new stimuli into the seance room, then by the laws of chance there must have been cases in the past where a medium HAS been harmed due to a direct instruction from the guides to introduce something new into the seance room – be it flashlight, infra red or whatever.
So, can you please provide any examples of this to support your contention?
The alternative opinion, and one I endorse, is that because the guides know exactly the chemical and biological make up of the medium and the effects any stimuli would have upon them, they are fully aware whether it is safe to introduce it or not.
Peter Raggett:
“You
“My opinion is that the spirit team know the biology of the medium and the effects of any new stimulus introduced into the séance room before hand. They do not treat the medium like some ‘lab rat’ and hope for the best!”
Me
And I have used examples to show that spirit do take calculated risks. They advised Alec Harris not to go ahead because they suspected mischief. He went ahead regardless and paid the price. Spirit, with their better foresight, could have refused to proceed to protect him but they went ahead and took a risk.”
But you admit the guides were concerned for his safety and advised against it. If a medium refuses to follow their instructions then he is fully responsible for what happens, NOT the guides! They did NOT want to take a risk.
Peter Raggett:
“Let me ask you this: Has there ever been a record of a physical medium being harmed due to a direct instruction from one of their spirit guides?”
Not to my knowledge.”
Then this supports my argument that the guides are fully aware if a new stimulus would harm the medium or not. They do not treat the medium as a “guinea pig” where potential danger is concerned.
Peter Raggett:
“That’s obviously why they are very cautious over the introduction of light and anything else potentially harmful, hence the delays regarding David Thompson introducing light and other recording equipment. It’s a perfectly reasonable assumption.”
Not when he has already done it!
David Thompson was first video filmed in about 2008 – 3 years ago – with no harm coming to him. His mediumship has been proven to be able to function in such conditions. Therefore, your argument doesn’t address why there has been no further progress in this area.
For example: Why haven’t they filmed the materialised head of ‘William’ close up, under the same conditions? Why haven’t they produced film of ‘William’ standing by the figure of Thompson in his chair, under the same conditions?
Why, 3 years later – despite all the hysterical claims of “earth shattering evidence” – have we just a blurry, indistinct still photo of a white blob peering out from a pair of curtains?
It’s all very well talking about “delays” being due to the guide’s caution “over the introduction of light and anything else potentially harmful” – but Thompson already HAS produced film in low light. Your point is totally irrelevant.
Peter Raggett:
“You
“They would not do anything to endanger the health of their medium. You are suggesting that they would do so.”
Me
I am saying they can and do take calculated risks.”
I have already addressed this point, above. I requested you to supply evidence of any cases where the guide’s “risks” in introducing new stimuli have resulted in harm coming to the medium.
Please don’t confuse things by refering to people grabbing the ectoplasm – that is not the issue. We are talking here specifically about the alleged risks involved in seance room stimuli – such as infra red or thermal imaging – and whether the guides know if it is safe to introduce or not. You are alleging that they don’t know.
Peter Raggett:
“You
“You are completely missing the point. Light is only a risk if it is used when it shouldn’t be! If the guides instruct its use, they deem it safe. This is exactly the same as for infra red and video filming.”
Me
I am not missing the point.”
I’m afraid you are. You keep going off at a tangent and refering to “risks” outside the guide’s control – such as your Alec Harris reference where HE ignored their advice.
That’s not what I’m talking about at all.
Peter Raggett:
“I am saying all the delays could be due to the caution over introducing light and/or new technology after they have determined the conditions are right.”
This does NOT explain the “delays” in producing more credible evidence under filming conditions Thompson has already operated in. I refer you back to my reply, above.
Peter Raggett:
“Nevertheless, they can’t know something is totally safe till they try it out.”
You state this as a fact. How do YOU know????
Peter Raggett:
“You
“You are moving the goalposts here, Peter. The issue under original discussion between us was the reason why the guides wouldn’t introduce detailed video filming. It had nothing to do with the stupid actions of other people.”
Me
I used Helen Duncan and Alec Harris as an example of the risk spirit are willing to take in the interests of truth.”
Exactly! You are moving the goalposts, as I said.
Peter Raggett:
“You
Then we are agreed that spirit are not delaying progress in filming because of some concern that mankind isn’t ready for it.
Me
I don’t see how you worked that out from my posting!”
Because you stated: “I didn’t claim video footage would be total proof either.”
If it’s not “total proof”, why would spirit delay “progress in filming because of some concern that mankind isn’t ready for it”?
Simon
Simon
Neither of us can know for sure whether or not certain experiments are harming the medium. We can only surmise using the information at our disposal. We do not know that the introduction of light sources or other devices emitting a field of some kind are not harming the medium in some way not apparent at the time. And I suggest, that the spirit workers, especially those of recent passing like David’s team,
not being omniscient, know for certain either. Damage could be slowly building up which may start to become apparent to the spirit team and as a result they ease back on the throttle. I am not stating it as a definite fact. Just surmising like you are.
I am saying that experiments carry a certain amount of risk and its all about reducing the risk to an acceptable level. Its what pharmaceutical companies do every day. Its what insurers do every day. Responsible risk management.
We all know that experiments with ectoplasm are a risky business. I am saying that spirit, obviously having weighed up all the circumstances and taking human nature into account, take a calculated risk every time they produce it. They have no way of knowing that some idiot is not going to do something silly. They take the risk that it won’t happen. Whether you like it or not it proves they are in the risk business which began when they first started experimenting with ectoplasm involving mediums.
Sometimes things go wrong and spirit know this from experience with Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. Nevertheless here we are many years down the line and they are obviously still prepared to produce ectoplasm despite a new energy based system employed by Scole that is apparently totally safe.
Even then the Scole spirit experimenters had to stop the circle because of alleged interference with the laws of time. This was obviously unforeseen by the experimenters prior to the experiments and proves that, like all experimenters, they are taking some risks and are gaining knowledge as a result, like you and me.
As I keep repeating, video evidence on its own is not conclusive proof but it would be compelling if it was backed up by testimony from trusted people. It would not take long for someone like Michael Roll to swing into action. Indeed I understand he already has the funding and protocols agreed if a suitable subject comes forward
Peter Raggett:
“Simon
Neither of us can know for sure whether or not certain experiments are harming the medium.”
That is not a point under debate, Peter. The debate is concerned with your suggestion that the guides introduce new stimuli into the seance room without fully knowing if it will harm the medium or not.
Peter Raggett:
“We do not know that the introduction of light sources or other devices emitting a field of some kind are not harming the medium in some way not apparent at the time.”
I refer you to my reply, above.
Peter Raggett:
“And I suggest, that the spirit workers, especially those of recent passing like David’s team, not being omniscient, know for certain either.”
You keep suggesting it, but offer us no evidence to support it. I addressed your claim previously:
“You keep maintaining that there is a risk to the medium every time a new stimulus is introduced – yet have provided no evidence to support this contention. If, as you suggest, there ARE risks in introducing new stimuli into the seance room, then by the laws of chance there must have been cases in the past where a medium HAS been harmed due to a direct instruction from the guides to introduce something new into the seance room – be it flashlight, infra red or whatever.
So, can you please provide any examples of this to support your contention?”
I note that you haven’t supplied us with any examples in your reply.
If there are no accounts available of mediums being harmed by the PERMITTED introduction of new stimuli into the seance room, then it is credible evidence to support the view that the guides DO actually know what they are doing.
Does it not?
Your other points which follow are just repetition of what you have already claimed, so forgive me if I don’t respond to them since we are just going round in circles.
Hi All,
Risks to health for the medium and sitters
Risk one I was present, was at Cober Hill when Timothy asked A sitter called Malcolm a very experienced man to come forward carefully in the dark. He was in front of the medium and then Timothy shouted BOO! extremely loudly.The risk was that Malcolm nearly fell on David. I protested to William and then this stupid action was repeated by Timothy. This could have cause a major problem and would have shown that our efforts of safety are irrelevent.
Risk two. I was not present. The greatest risk ever undertaken in any seance. A baby in the seance room (David’s own daughter) is taken back to the spirit World and then later brought back to the Earth Plane. This was from the original transcript (changed by the Zerdin for their publication). Bianca (David’s wife) was not aware of this whilst it was happening so what would the risk have been? On one occasion a bracelet could not be returned as it had got lost, this suggests it to be a risky business. If we are to assume that this was exactly how this happened then the morals need to be questioned for the spirit team. If it had been known in advance,even though in this case it wasn’t, then the morals of the circle are to be questioned. Of course it may not have happened and then all parties need to be viewed with suspicion.
Aspirin etc: I was not present. If David were to put the original transcript as a post on here it would help matters. This is one of the most dangerous pieces of “medical advice” I have ever heard. I refer back to Victor’s recent comments on responsibility.I do not believe a disclaimer offers sufficient responsibility.
If a gas engineer tells you that an appliance is unsafe this does not protect him from prosecution if there is an incident he would have to render the appliance dismantled so that it cannot be used.
I can confirm that the medical issue that Lis referred to is correct. I heard an unacceptable claim form Dr. Slavinski the spirit surgeon, given to a lady who had breast cancer. He informed her that she did not need to have had her breast removed. She still had problems and there was concern over the other breast. One might think that this statement would have casued great upset with regards to the breast already removed and cause greater anxiety to the decision making process looming for her at that time with the other breast.
These issues have always needed to be resolved and still do. I do not care if it is spirit or David or a combination it is unacceptable full stop.
I say this not as a skeptic but as someone who has invested a huge amount of time and energy in promoting what I believe to be the right thing to do. I have supported David where I can and if it is right to do so. I cannot support anything that happens without regard of the consequences and never will.
warm regards
Paul Barker:
“Risks to health for the medium and sitters
Risk one I was present, was at Cober Hill when Timothy asked A sitter called Malcolm a very experienced man to come forward……”
While non of your examples are directly relevant to my points concerning the alleged risks involving introducing stimul such as infra red into the seance room, I will say this Paul:
I would be very suscpicious as to the authenticity of an alleged spirit guide who attempted to deliberately scare a sitter during a seance. Your story only causes more doubts to be raised as to Thompson’s mediumship.
Paul Barker:
“Risk two. I was not present. The greatest risk ever undertaken in any seance. A baby in the seance room (David’s own daughter) is taken back to the spirit World and then later brought back to the Earth Plane.”
What evidence was there that this actually occured? Since the body of the baby is physical and cannot travel to the spirit world, where did its body go? How was it known the body wasn’t in the seance room?
Further, what was the point in using up so much valuable energy in this endevour, rather than offering personal evidence for survival which is the very purpose of a genuine seance?
Hi Simon,
You said: “I would be very suscpicious as to the authenticity of an alleged spirit guide who attempted to deliberately scare a sitter during a seance. Your story only causes more doubts to be raised as to Thompson’s mediumship”.
C’mon Simon surely this sort of innocent act is just a typical childish prank from a CHILD in spirit whose job it is to try and raise the energies or ease the tensions of new sitters with a bit of fun and laughter…I’ve witnessed both Stewart Alexander’s “Christopher” and Colin Fry’s “Charlie” doing exactly the same thing of shouting out “Boo” during a seance. Lighten up folks you are far too serious about what amounts to a bit of harmless fun…nobody fell on anybody in those seances either…nearly or otherwise!!
Sincerely,
Denzil
Denzil Fairbairn:
“Hi Simon,
You said: “I would be very suscpicious as to the authenticity of an alleged spirit guide who attempted to deliberately scare a sitter during a seance. Your story only causes more doubts to be raised as to Thompson’s mediumship”.
“C’mon Simon surely this sort of innocent act is just a typical childish prank from a CHILD in spirit whose job it is to try and raise the energies or ease the tensions of new sitters with a bit of fun and laughter…
Denzil, the guide is only in the guise of a child for the seance. In reality, he is a mature adult. You seem to be forgetting this.
You consider that it’s perfectly OK for an alleged guide to shout “BOO! “extremely loudly”, startling the sitter so much that he nearly falls on the medium. You consider it OK that this alleged guide then repeats this action again, despite the protest of one of the sitters. That’s your opinion. We’ll just have to disagree on this.
Denzil Fairbairn:
“I’ve witnessed both Stewart Alexander’s “Christopher” and Colin Fry’s “Charlie” doing exactly the same thing of shouting out “Boo” during a seance.”
Yes, but it depends on the exact situation as to whether it’s appropriate or not and the potential consequences of doing it. I very much doubt that Christopher would suddenly start shouting out when a sitter was in danger of being so surprised that he could fall on the medium.
Hi Simon,
You said “Denzil, the guide is only in the guise of a child for the seance. In reality, he is a mature adult. You seem to be forgetting this.”
Simon…I suggest you read my posting again…I did not say the guide is in the guize of a child…you are very good at changing how a posting is put forward to meet your own expectation.
There is, as we are so often told, no passage of time in Spirit hence it is not necessarilly the case that a child guide (or any other child) will choose to grow to maturity. This is especially the case for child guides during the period for which they are working with their mediums. As an example, my Father was a deep trance medium for 40 years…his child guide passed to Spirit at the age of 6 years…he remained that age, in Spirit, until my Father passed…it was only at this point that this little Sudanese boy chose to grow up…there’s no rush ‘cos there’s no time in Spirit! This has been confirmed through my youngest Sister, who is also a Trance Medium…the little boy has returned on several occasions. He came through initially, for the first 5-6 years, as the same 6 year old child but gradually, once he had chosen to grow up in the Spirit world (which he informed us would happen) he found it increasingly difficult to hold on to that young child persona so that now when he comes through he returns as a young man.
You also said “You consider that it’s perfectly OK for an alleged guide to shout “BOO! “extremely loudly”, startling the sitter so much that he nearly falls on the medium. You consider it OK that this alleged guide then repeats this action again, despite the protest of one of the sitters. That’s your opinion. We’ll just have to disagree on this.”
Again. it would seem, you have put your own expectation on how the Spirit personalities should conduct themselves…in this case Simon they are children who’s job it is within the seance room to help relax the sitters and generate a lighter energy/atmosphere…shouting Boo creates a bit of excitement and laughter in the room..in the instance of David’s “Timothy” I do not know whether he has chosen to maintain his portrayed age or not but at the time he is the seance room he is a young child and does things that most people would “normally” expect a young child to do. Again, I would suggest that perhaps some people do allow their own expectations to get in the way…why not just let the Spirit controls take care of “health and safety”…they are the ones with the control and experience…with everything considered there is actually no record of one person, in a seance room, coming to harm through a child guide shouting “Boo”…and by the way was it the sitter who protested or was it the circle leader who was worried for the Medium?
You said “Yes, but it depends on the exact situation as to whether it’s appropriate or not and the potential consequences of doing it. I very much doubt that Christopher would suddenly start shouting out when a sitter was in danger of being so surprised that he could fall on the medium.”
I have sat many times with Stewart and on many of these occasions when new sitters have been there…part of Christopher’s remit is to help people, in his words, “relarx”…invariably he would ask if there were any new people present?…he would then ask the sitters if they were frightened?
…regardless of whether he got a positive or negative response he would always shout “Boo” very loudly and then start laughing. One would have to summise that Christopher was always aware of what the consequences of his action would be and I personally would trust him to know that there wasn’t someone in the room with a heart problem or mental issues that could have them rampaging around the room and perhaps harming the medium. Similarly I would trust that Timothy knew Malcolm wasn’t going to fall on top of David…and that it might perhaps have been Paul’s own expectations of what “might” have happened. I hope he won’t mind me saying ‘cos I’ve known Paul for a long time and he is, by his very nature, a cautious man with a lot of common sense. In his workaday life he is responsible for the safety of his workmen when on site and I suspect he would also have felt a certain amount of responsibility for the welfare of all the sitters at each and every one of David’s public seances which to my mind is extremely commendable…however, in the dark of a seance room, we are not the ones in control…we can’t be expected to be…we need to let go and know that the Spirit team is in control and give them our trust to carry out their work.
Sincerely,
Denzil
Denzil Fairbairn:
“You said “Denzil, the guide is only in the guise of a child for the seance. In reality, he is a mature adult. You seem to be forgetting this.”
Simon…I suggest you read my posting again…I did not say the guide is in the guize of a child…”
I never claimed you did, Denzil. I suggest you read MY posting again!
I merely stated that Timothy is in the guise of a child. Do you dispute this??? Since “guise” means general external appearance I don’t see why you are making an issue of this.
Denzil Fairbairn:
“you are very good at changing how a posting is put forward to meet your own expectation.”
Completely UNTRUE. I have not changed how your post was put forward whatsoever.
Denzil Fairbairn:
“There is, as we are so often told, no passage of time in Spirit hence it is not necessarilly the case that a child guide (or any other child) will choose to grow to maturity. This is especially the case for child guides during the period for which they are working with their mediums.
Timothy Booth allegedly died in 1908, Peter. This is around half a century BEFORE Thompson was even born.
What evidence have you to suggest that Timothy Booth hasn’t grown up and is the same immature child he was on earth?
Regardless of whether Timothy Booth has grown up in the spirit world or not, he needs a high degree of maturity to perform his role in the seance room. According to Victor Zammit:
“Timothy, the entity who controls the ectoplasm and helps bring through people’s relatives, conducted a spectacular trumpet display..”
So, I still contend that your inference that the alleged Timothy would be just an immature child who wouldn’t be aware of acceptable behaviour is erroneous.
Denzil Fairbairn:
“You also said “You consider that it’s perfectly OK for an alleged guide to shout “BOO! “extremely loudly”, startling the sitter so much that he nearly falls on the medium. You consider it OK that this alleged guide then repeats this action again, despite the protest of one of the sitters. That’s your opinion. We’ll just have to disagree on this.”
Again. it would seem, you have put your own expectation on how the Spirit personalities should conduct themselves…”
Everybody has their own “expectation” of “how the Spirit personalities should conduct themselves”, Denzil. If you sat in a seance and an alleged spirit guide started telling racist jokes I’m damn sure you would think their behaviour wasn’t meeting your “expectation”!
Similarly, the alleged Timothy’s behaviour in this case DOES meet your “expectation” of how a guide should behave – otherwise you wouldn’t be defending it.
As I said previously, if you think Timothy’s behaviour in this instance is OK, then that’s fine. But please accept that other people have different views on an alleged guide nearly causing a sitter to fall on top of the medium.
Denzil Fairbairn:
“in this case Simon they are children who’s job it is within the seance room to help relax the sitters and generate a lighter energy/atmosphere…”
As I have previously pointed out – Timothy’s job involves a lot more than that, let’s get this straight. He is not merely some infantile kid only capable of talking and ‘messing about’.
He: “controls the ectoplasm and helps bring through people’s relatives”.
He is also mature enough and intelligent enough to have: “conducted a spectacular trumpet display.”
Are you really suggesting that the spirit team would leave it to an immature kid in charge of controling the ectoplasm and manipulating the trumpets?! C’mon, let’s face the obvious here, Denzil.
Whether the alleged Timothy is a child in spirit or not, he would be mature.
Hi Simon,
Yes I would agree there does have to be a certain degree of maturity present with a child guide…and this comes hand in hand with the degree of responsibility placed upon that child in relation to the job it has been allocated and the degree of experience gained in carrying out that job…but whether the child passed in 1908 or 1708 is not relevent in a dimension where time doesn’t exist…so the Child could be still play, what may appear to those of a serious nature, a childish prank but one would expect this to be within their control because of their experience and the responsibility they take on…again it comes down to our trust in them. Surely, if we can put our trust in the likes of Christopher and Timothy to send a couple of trumpets whizzing around the room, in the dark, at tens of miles an hour for minutes at a time…coming so close that you can feel the breezes being generated as they pass…and with a potential to cause sitters pain and damage were it to hit them…then surely we have to be assured that they know what they are doing when shouting out Boo especially when using a very experienced sitter, as in the case of Malcolm…I could possibly agree with you more readilly had the sitter, called forward, been a newby…but then they wouldn’t do that because of the unknown risk. Perhaps you need to suggest next that they ought to ban trumpet levitation because of Health and Safety reasons??
It would be nice to hear Malcolm’s own comments on this experience!! rather than speculation from those who have obviously made an incorrect assumption that he could have fallen over on top of the medium which quite clearly he didn’t…and I trust would have been taken into careful consideration beforehand.
Lis, the suggestion from the Spirit entity claiming to be Tim was that birth/death dates had been manipulated by people on this Forum, not by Tim and William themselves. I have no way of checking this myself I’m afraid.
My goodness Tony, what an extraordinary claim on the part of this alleged spirit called Tim!
I can assure you the stated dates for William Charles Cadwell’s birth as in 1830 and his death as in 1897, and the stated year of birth of Timothy as 1899, and his death in 1908, are claims made by William Charles Cadwell and Timothy Booth, David Thompson’s spirit controls. These claims have been repeatedly stated by David Thompson as well both on the internet and when he has undertaken public events, including seances and other forms of public demonstration.
Perhaps because of the controversy over the claimed lives of these two spirit controls, and the apparent lack of evidence of any kind to support the claims, has now resulted in David Thompson no longer publishing this information. I don’t know as I don’t bother to follow any of his pronouncements or reports on his seances.
Looking at the claims made by the alleged spirit with whom you made contact:
1. people are trying to disrupt David’s mediumship;
2. filming cut short as it was emitting infra-red;
3. the shoes were William’s and the picture wasn’t manipulated;
4.. William and Timothy did exist on Earth and that dates have been altered to confuse people;
it seems that all claims do not actually stand up to scutiny. People are not trying to disrupt David’s mediumship. The film was not cut short due to infra-red emissions. There is no evidence that the dark shape at the bottom of the curtain was one of William’s shoes. There are clear indications that the picture was manipulated. There is no evidence that William and Timothy did exist on earth, and no one has altered the dates of their claimed births and deaths to confuse people.
All in all, while not wishing to be disrespectful to your viewpoint, I feel there is a strong argument for saying that whatever you made contact with was either a Spirit impostor, or, if actually David’s spirit control Timothy, they are a liar.
You say, you have no way of knowing whether that “Tim” you made contact with is real or not. I say, we can assess their validity by the veracity of what they say. In this case they have spoken falsely. As such I believe no credence should be placed on the information you channeled.
Simon
You have totally missed the thrust of my argument. I proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room. Therefore it is not unreasonable to speculate, based on this, that they could be taking calculated risks over the introduction of light or field emitting devices in the séance room.
I have never said there is DEFINATELY a new risk every time a new device is introduced only that there COULD be. I do not know if this is true and you do not know if it is not. We can only speculate based on information conveyed to us by guides and mediums.
As far as we know no medium has been harmed over the introduction of light sources in the séance room. This COULD be because of extreme CAUTION exercised over a procedure that COULD be harmful. That COULD be the reason why David’s development in this relation has not developed further so far.
I suggest, we do not even know whether or not the regular extraction of ectoplasm from the medium over a lifetime is having some sort of deleterious effect on the medium‘s health. We know that some mediums feel exhausted after a session and need to have a rest when it has ended. Maybe, just maybe, this is evidence of stress on their system that, over time, could be affecting their health. And MAYBE ectoplasm produced for the purposes of spirit materialisations in light causes added stress and therefore potentially more harm. Who knows?
This is MY OPINION which is supposition and conjecture based on information gleaned over the years of studying what mediums and researchers have claimed. I stress I am not insisting it is a fact because I don’t know and have never claimed I did know. I must point out that I made this abundantly clear right at the start of this discussion.
Peter Raggett:
“You have totally missed the thrust of my argument. I proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
How, exactly?
Previously you stated:
“I have no idea how spirit discovered that sound recording equipment or any of the other new technology was OK.”
Yet you know for sure that spirit don’t know if producing ectoplasm is “OK”?
Peter Raggett:
“I have never said there is DEFINATELY a new risk every time a new device is introduced only that there COULD be.”
I never claimed you did. I just analysed and questioned you on your reasoning upon the guide’s knowledge of the risks.
Peter Raggett:
“As far as we know no medium has been harmed over the introduction of light sources in the séance room.”
Which as I’ve already pointed out, suggests they actually DO know what they are doing in the seance room.
Peter Raggett:
“This COULD be because of extreme CAUTION exercised over a procedure that COULD be harmful.”
You can be as cautious as you like, it still doesn’t guarantee that no harm will be done. The fact that no medium, as far as we are aware, has been harmed due to the permitted use of light, suggests that the guides know that it is safe to introduce it in the manner they want. The laws of chance and probability prove that if they didn’t know what they were doing, then at some time or another, a medium WOULD have been harmed – no matter how “cautious” the guides were.
And please remember Peter, being cautious doesn’t mean ignorance.
Peter Raggett:
“This is MY OPINION which is supposition and conjecture based on information gleaned over the years of studying what mediums and researchers have claimed. I stress I am not insisting it is a fact because I don’t know and have never claimed I did know.”
Well, that’s not really correct, is it? Earlier you stated as a fact, not as an opinion:
“Nevertheless, they can’t know something is totally safe till they try it out.”
You also claimed to have “proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
I’m sure the SPR would be delighted to hear of your groundbreaking breakthrough in psychical research!
(Forgive my sarcasm, only joking).
?
Writers on this site will be pleased to see that the famous sceptic and atheist Prof. Richard Dawkins is not against spiritualism with a small “s” as opposed to the officially recognised one-god religion of Spiritualism.
“Actually my mind is not clammed shut against spiritualism or other supernormal phenomena. I strongly applaud your statement that, if such phenomena were demonstrated to exist, they would not me supernatural but natural….I am all for people making a proper search for evidence for supernormal phenomena.”
This is taken from a letter from Dawkins to my friend Stan Ford dated 22 January 1992. It can be seen on my website http://www.cfpf.org.uk
Correspondence Section in date order.
This is why it is vital that we repeat the scientific pioneering experiments with materialisation mediums carried out my Crookes, Richet, Schrenck Notzing, Hamilton and Crawford using to start with night vision goggles that cannot harm the medium in any way. The funding will come from the universities for such revolutionary scientific experiments.
Michael Roll
Well said Michael
Jim
Two thumbs down (at the time of writing) for your innocuous three word comment Jim. It’s almost as if certain people’s comments will automatically get a thumbs down regardless of what they say…
Simon
ME
“You have totally missed the thrust of my argument. I proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
You
How, exactly?
We have been over this so many times! Obviously some things are known as fact and that would be clear to anyone. An obvious fact, and one even you cannot deny, is that spirit are prepared to take what they regard as acceptable risks in the séance room. This is the main thrust of my argument.
Me
“I have no idea how spirit discovered that sound recording equipment or any of the other new technology was OK.”
You
Yet you know for sure that spirit don’t know if producing ectoplasm is “OK”?
Me
Its as clear as a pikestaff that they know producing ectoplasm is a risk to the medium because of the problems over sudden interruption. If you are not clear on this there is no hope for us.
Me
“As far as we know no medium has been harmed over the introduction of light sources in the séance room.”
You
Which as I’ve already pointed out, suggests they actually DO know what they are doing in the séances room.
Me
I have never said they don’t know what they are doing. They indeed do know what they are doing. They are taking calculated risks in their research of the production of ectoplasm. Its what research is about- taking acceptable risks having weighed up all the theoretical evidence.
You
You can be as cautious as you like, it still doesn’t guarantee that no harm will be done. The fact that no medium, as far as we are aware, has been harmed due to the permitted use of light, suggests that the guides know that it is safe to introduce it in the manner they want. The laws of chance and probability prove that if they didn’t know what they were doing, then at some time or another, a medium WOULD have been harmed – no matter how “cautious” the guides were.
Me
Or it could mean that they have avoided incidents due to extreme care, possibly due to spirit learning from the mistakes regarding Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. Yes they do indeed know what they are doing. Its probably because of this knowledge that they are proceeding with extreme care!
Séances involving ectoplasm and the introduction of light are so rarely reported that there is insufficient data on which draw a firm conclusion.
You
And please remember Peter, being cautious doesn’t mean ignorance.
Me
We are all ignorant of something. I think it was Einstein who said something like, “ If we had all the answers we would not call it research.” Spirit are obviously conducting research because they do not have all the answers. In this respect they are ignorant. Do not make the mistake of endowing spirit with omniscience.
Me
“This is MY OPINION which is supposition and conjecture based on information gleaned over the years of studying what mediums and researchers have claimed. I stress I am not insisting it is a fact because I don’t know and have never claimed I did know.”
You
Well, that’s not really correct, is it? Earlier you stated as a fact, not as an opinion:
“Nevertheless, they can’t know something is totally safe till they try it out.”
Me
For goodness sake. Stop splitting hairs. I have explained this argument till I am blue in the face! Its self evident. Theory has to give way to practice and risk at some stage. Spirit are dealing with a potentially dangerous substance if not handled correctly-ectoplasm.
You
You also claimed to have “proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
I’m sure the SPR would be delighted to hear of your groundbreaking breakthrough in psychical research!
Me
Its hardly a revelation. SPR members are as aware as I am over the reported harm to Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. You are the only person who is claiming there is no risk involved in séances involving ectoplasm. If you regard the fact of potential harm involving ectoplasm known to everyone else who has studied the subject as groundbreaking news original to me then heaven help us!
This exchange has been going so long that we are just repeating ourselves now. I cannot understand why you take such exception over what amounts to a hypothesis, based on some known facts, in order to explain certain anomalies. I am just putting the other side of the argument, but you seem to be taking it personally. For goodness sake, lighten up!
Peter:
“You have totally missed the thrust of my argument. I proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
Me: No you have not. Not so far in any of the arguments or suppositions put forward. That is why, in logical, objective terms, Simon has continued to argue and debate the matter with you.
Peter:
“Or it could mean that they have avoided incidents due to extreme care, possibly due to spirit learning from the mistakes regarding Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. Yes they do indeed know what they are doing. Its probably because of this knowledge that they are proceeding with extreme care!
Me: Again a series of fallacious arguments. The only dangers, if they exist at all, arising form spirit involvement in physical seances, Duncan or Harris included, arise from inappropriate conduct on the part of participants, not from any experimentation, or error on the part of Spirit.
Peter:
“Séances involving ectoplasm and the introduction of light are so rarely reported that there is insufficient data on which draw a firm conclusion.”
Me: False. There is a great wealth of material on the production of ectoplasm, materialization phenomena, and the use of light in in those situations, indeed, a vast amount of data to draw a conclusion from if one bothers to do the necessary research into the history and development of physical mediumship.
Peter:
“We are all ignorant of something. I think it was Einstein who said something like, “ If we had all the answers we would not call it research.” Spirit are obviously conducting research because they do not have all the answers. In this respect they are ignorant. Do not make the mistake of endowing spirit with omniscience.”
Me: How true it is that we are all ignorant of something, though in this case, where the ignorance lies is a matter of conjecture. Whatever Einstein said really has nothing to do this with debate, and certainly even less to do with the issue of whether we have all the answers, or whether spirit have all the answers or are merely “conducting research.” What an utterly disingenuous remark, suggesting that spirit is OBVIOUSLY conducting research because they do not have all the answers.
Says who? You.You, who are not in the spirit realm, don’t have the wisdom or knowledge that comes from being in the spirit world, still would claim you KNOW they don’t have all the answers, and we should not make the mistake of endowing spirit with omniscience.
It would seem, from your comments, however, that you have that necessary “omniscience” to know what is happening in the spirit realms, know their shortcomings, understand their inclination to experiment (rather carelessly it would seem according to your arguments) with the human beings who put themselves forward as mediums, and have the superior comprehension to advise us what mistakes we should not make in terms of our interaction with the spirit world.
An interesting argument.
Your assumptions about the intrinsically dangerous nature of this substance (ectoplasm) is also most interesting. Just why, in your opinion, is the production of ectoplasm so fundamentally dangerous, and even more importantly, why in your opinion is “Spirit,” that so not omniscient body of intelligence, willing to ‘experiment’ and according to you, put at risk mediums, by producing this dangerous substance, regardless of the claimed risk?
An excellent response, Lis!
Unlike Peter, you clearly understand the context of my points regarding the risks involved in producing ectoplasm and introducing filming:
“Lis:
Me: Again a series of fallacious arguments. The only dangers, if they exist at all, arising form spirit involvement in physical seances, Duncan or Harris included, arise from inappropriate conduct on the part of participants, not from any experimentation, or error on the part of Spirit.”
EXACTLY! 🙂
Lis
I have made this point countless times. You agree that every time ectoplasm is introduced everyone involved, including the spirit team, are taking the risk that someone will not do something silly. I have used this fact solely to show that spirit are not averse to taking a risk.
Using this as a given I then expanded it to include the introduction of light which we have been told can, if not handled very carefully, cause the ectoplasm to retract forcibly and cause harm. Spirit cannot know for instance, that someone will not commit an innocent mistake over the introduction of light and turn on a light bulb accidentally. This is a risk they are obviously prepared to take in the interests of, dare I say it, research.
As for me knowing that the spirit realms are engaged in research. That should be obvious to anyone. If they do not have all the answers (and why should they?) then they must be involved in the learning process just like us. How do I deduce this and know sprit are not omniscient? From reading the writings of Silver Birch and the like who constantly stressed that they are only human beings just like us and are not infallible, but just a bit further evolved.
I you read my postings carefully you would see that I am definitely not claiming to have all the answers. The following is a copy of my final paragraph in a previous posting so please do not attempt to discredit me in this way
“This is MY OPINION which is supposition and conjecture based on information gleaned over the years of studying what mediums and researchers have claimed. I stress I am not insisting it is a fact because I don’t know and have never claimed I did know. I must point out that I made this abundantly clear right at the start of this discussion.”
Peter:
“II have made this point countless times. You agree that every time ectoplasm is introduced everyone involved, including the spirit team, are taking the risk that someone will not do something silly. I have used this fact solely to show that spirit are not averse to taking a risk.”
Me”
No Peter, I do not agree. No matter how many times you say this I will not agree that EVERY time ectoplasm is introduced, everyone involved, including the spirit team, are taking a risk that someone will act inappropriately. No matter how many times you claim that spirit are not averse to taking a risk I will disagree.
After 46 years (longer than David Thompson has been alive) of working with spirit, every day, I know that is not the way the spirit I work with operate and I do not believe that the spirit that work with other genuine mediums operate that way either. I have never in that time known any genuine spirit to put at risk, or take a risk, that any medium would be harmed, or even inconvenienced by the actions of the spirit team. To do so is an absolute anathema to my understanding, based on a lifetime of involvement with spiritualism.
As for the rest of your comments, I will respond further shortly, though I doubt any any of my comments will be any more more supportive of the claims you are making than those I have already given. Nevertheless I will give genuine consideration before commenting again, so that there is no doubt that I have taken sufficient time to consider my response.
Handbags at Dawn then!
Peter Raggett:
“You
Yet you know for sure that spirit don’t know if producing ectoplasm is “OK”?
Me
Its as clear as a pikestaff that they know producing ectoplasm is a risk to the medium because of the problems over sudden interruption. If you are not clear on this there is no hope for us.”
Yet again Peter, you are completely missing my point! I’m talking about the guide’s knowledge about any risks involved in the production of ectoplasm itself – NOT the risks involved by outside parties.
This whole debate between us started as a discussion over the reasons why progress in filming has not taken place. You began by stating:
““The situation is, that at this moment in time, David’s mediumship has to be conducted in blacked out conditions and his spirit team will not allow ray emitting viewing aids to be used.”
The debate then proceeded to a discussion over the guide’s knowledge about the risks of introducing new stimuli (such as infra red, thermal imaging) into the seance room and how these new stimuli would affect the medium.
I have kept to this context. Yet you continue to deviate from this, by bringing in the risks associated with the stupid actions of outside parties. Yes – I know FULL WELL that there are risks involved with sitters doing something they have not been permitted to do! That is a given. There is no point debating that because every one knows and accepts those risks are there.
They are there whenever a medium produces ectoplasm – but it doesn’t stop Thompson holding physical seances, does it? Therefore, they are not a cause of the lack of progress in filming the phenomena. So why you keep bringing these particular risks up and confusing the discussion is beyond me.
Peter Raggett:
“You
You can be as cautious as you like, it still doesn’t guarantee that no harm will be done. The fact that no medium, as far as we are aware, has been harmed due to the permitted use of light, suggests that the guides know that it is safe to introduce it in the manner they want. The laws of chance and probability prove that if they didn’t know what they were doing, then at some time or another, a medium WOULD have been harmed – no matter how “cautious” the guides were.
Me
Or it could mean that they have avoided incidents due to extreme care, possibly due to spirit learning from the mistakes regarding Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. Yes they do indeed know what they are doing. Its probably because of this knowledge that they are proceeding with extreme care!”
Oh dear, there you go again!
The “mistakes” involving Duncan and Harris were because of unpermitted actions from outside parties – NOT the guides!
Peter Raggett:
“You
You also claimed to have “proved that spirit do take risks, albeit calculated, over the introduction of ectoplasm in the séance room.”
I’m sure the SPR would be delighted to hear of your groundbreaking breakthrough in psychical research!
Me
Its hardly a revelation.”
You are too modest! ‘Proving’ the existence of ectoplasm, as you claim you have done, would be the biggest breakthrough in the history of psychical reasearch.
Peter Raggett:
“SPR members are as aware as I am over the reported harm to Helen Duncan and Alec Harris. You are the only person who is claiming there is no risk involved in séances involving ectoplasm.”
This is getting tiresome. I have done NO such thing. I refer you to my first answer, above.
I will not respond to the rest of your responses as I have already addressed them and we are just going round and round in circles now.
We will just have to agree to differ on our points of view.
Simon
I can only refer you to the answer I gave to Lis and add.
My assumptions are derived from two known facts.
1. Spirit teams doe take risks (in goof faith) as is evidenced by the death of Helen Duncan and the harm caused to Alec Harris.
2. Spirit teams do carry out research. The Scole experiment was seven solid years of research and you don’t carry out research if you know all the answers.
My assumptions are logical conclusions from widely known facts. Therefore as we all know spirit do take SOME risks its not unreasonable to suggest they MAYBE take SOME risks over the introduction of light. I do not know for certain whether they do or not and neither do you or Lis. Its all speculation.
While we are on the matter, why do you suppose spirit still take part in risky ectoplasm based séances despite the fact that RESEARCH has produced what is claimed to be a totally safe energy based method? I think it is because there are not enough energy based circles in operation at present and so they are prepared to take acceptable risks for the time being. I don’t know for certain. Just speculating.
Peter, When Helen Duncan materialised at the Rita Goold experiment in 1983 I asked her why her etheric team did not warn her about the trap that led to her death? She replied,
“I was warned Michael but I took the risk because I did not want to let all the people down who had paid to see me demonstrate. This is why we have banned Rita and her team from taking a penny from anybody.”
I understand that Helen Duncan materialised at every demonstration that Rita gave. She had already been checked out before I went to Leicester in March 1983 by her daughter Gena Brealey. This meeting was organised by the journalist Alan Cleaver. His full report is on the Internet – The Cleaver Report.
Michael Roll
Hi All,
My comment on the baby disappearing was not my belief of what happened but my reading of the report sent by the DT circle of the day. If such an event actually happened ( I am not a member of that club) then the risks would have been enormous for the medium’s daughter. Far greater one would have supposed than any red lights or infa red to a medium
As for the Boo incidence during a seance, whilst I admit that I may be cautious as Denzil has commented if the medium’s life is on the line then this is the side to be on surely. However the point of me taking care along with other sitters and venue holders etc to minimize the risk to the medium . It is irrelevent if the guide is to behave in such a way. It was said that sitters have hurt mediums but spirit never have. This would have been the case had Malcolm hurt the medium the responsibility would have all fallen on the shoulders of the guide. To say it wouldn’t would mean that Timothy would be in complete control of Malcolm as well and all his faculties at the time. Had Malcolm fallen over and broken his leg then whose fault would this have been? David’s, Malcolm, mine or Cober Hill.
I am not against the mediums charging and the income does make it a professional relationship between medium and sitters of course. I think where Michael mentions a medium not charging ( and this does not aimed at Rita) there is still the morale responsibility money or not on the table.
I have had a rant at Stephen Turoff here earlier. Is there not another issue to David Haith’s friend who was conned out of money to put tea bags on his eyes. He would have been conned for free had no money changed hands. The tea bags were not going to change in their potency because of the charge by the medium.
warm regards
Lis
We will just have to differ. That’s fair enough. What gets my goat though is that some people give the impression that they have source of superior knowledge when, apart from generally accepted facts, we are all basing our conclusions on assumptions. No one knows for sure.
My feeling is that there are a number of reasons over the delay in the introduction of light into the séance room. Safety of the medium, degradation of the phenomena by light sources and the fact that spirit are in no hurry to produce absolute proof because of the possible violent consequences for many concerned. My hunch is that the last reason is most likely the main reason for the delay.
During my sittings with the fine independent direct voice medium Leslie Flint,
I heard both male and female spirit entities communicating.
Does anyone know if David Thompson has claimed to “materialise” any female spirit entities, particularly celebrities or other famous names? If so, who were they, what did they sound like and are there any extracts to listen to? If not, why not?
James
Jim Warood Wrote:
Very interesting Denzil, I would never have chosen to take it to this particular issue but, from the material I have, I would suggest you should cross check some of the numbers involved, charges, minimum requirements, who actually pays the expenses etc.
Mr Jim Warwood,
First of all let us be honest as to why you and your wife Liz Warwood are banned from our seances.
Prior to attending one of our seance a few years ago, you made negative comments about my financial situation on the now defunct website “Spiritualist Chatroom”. After being asked to refrain from this by my previous manager, you continued to do so, so we took the decision to preclude you both from our seances.
Ever since then both you and your wife have taken every opportunity to raise any negative aspects about my mediumship along with George Cranley on your website “SpiritualistLink” and also on any other websites like “Paranormal Review”.
We have asked you both nicely on more than one occasion to refrain from this barrage of negative comments, we even sent you legal correspondance via email, but as can be seen here it made no difference.
My Financial situation has nothing to do with you or anybody else, it is a private matter of my own, and it is clear to see you have your facts completely wrong in regards to fees, etc.
Due to your continual referance to my financial matters, I feel you have gone beyond the realms of fair behaviour and now made it a personal matter.
I would kindly and publicly ask you once again to stop making reference to my personal financial situation, I stipulate once again, it is none of your business or anyone elses.
Regards
David Thompson
It’s rather telling that the issue of money would provoke a response rather than any other issue raised here. Such as these questions posed by Roy Stemman which remain unanswered:
1. Is it the goal of yourself or your spirit helpers to ultimately produce materialisations or other physical phenomena in a red light?
2. If so, when do you expect that to happen?
3. In the meantime, is it sensible to continue to demonstrate in total darkness, leaving some participants (as evidenced from responses to my Blog) unconvinced by the results?
4. Are your spirit helpers striving to provide more personal survival evidence in the future and less show business entertainment from the likes of Quentin Crisp and Louis Armstrong?
5. Can your main spirit helper, William, explain why the materialised Gordon Higginson was unaware that his good friend Heather Hatton had passed over to spirit a year earlier when he communicated in Australia?
6. Have your spirit helpers been asked about the introduction of night vision goggles or infra-red light to view and even film the materialised entities?
7. Instead of being tied up during a séance, would you agree to being tested by SPR researchers using simple weighing devices that would monitor not only your presence in a chair throughout the séance proceedings, but also the independent existence (by weight) of any spirits that materialised? Such a method would be totally unobtrusive as far as light is concerned, if total darkness continues to be a necessary condition of your mediumship.
My computer informs me that there were four new postings on this forum but the e-mails were blank and I cant find the comments on here. I can only assume they were not intended for me and are buried away somewhere. Apologies if they were intended for me because I cant fine em’ to reply to.
Hi Michael,
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since the Science and the Séance thread on the BBC forum. What a coincidence that a nuclear physicist contributed to help Ron Pearson with his book. Or was it a coincidence?
Helen Duncan did indeed take a risk. Spirit were also taking a risk along with her though. If they were so sure there would be problems they could have refused to participate, but they still went ahead. After all they could have just not turned up.
I do think we need to exercise great caution all round when dealing with criticisms of mediums and materialisations though. I think most people on here agree that Helen Duncan was genuine but there was a huge amount of controversy surrounding her. Someone alleged on the BBC forum, if you recall, that that there is in the possession of the SPR the ‘original’ cheesecloth that she was supposed to have swallowed and regurgitated at will, and that somewhere there is supposed to be an admission from her maid (did she have a maid? I thought she was poor) that it was her job to iron it!
Liz, regarding the safety of materialisation mediums. In my experience with Rita Goold I was very impressed with just how the etheric team are in control when protecting their medium. The chap who was caught red handed cheating with roses in the back of his tape recorder came to Rita’s with evil intent. Her etheric team knew his game even before he arrived. He came with a passenger in his car. When Rita went into trance the man was immobilized. He could not even blink. Helen Duncan then read the Riot Act to him. When he was released he was so terrified that he rushed to his car and drove home. He was in such a state that he had forgotten that he had brought somebody with him. This man had to stay the night with Rita. Genuine mediums are in very good hands. I remember thinking at the time thanks goodness I am fighting on the side of these etheric people and not against them.
Michael Roll
Peter, Fair point about the etheric team not turning up and putting their medium (Helen Duncan) in danger. However, this outrageous business about regurgitating cheesecloth is something floated by our most deadly enemies. At Helen Duncan’s trial a surgeon stood up and held a small ladies handkerchief pointing out that it would be impossible to swallow this or anything else and regurgitate it. If anybody tried it they would die.
Don’t forget those with a great deal to lose from the truth (the proof of survival) hold the high ground – media and scientific outlets. Hence the outrageous attacks on Sir William Crookes without any of his supporters being allowed the right to reply.
Michael Roll
Michael
Your experience with Rita Goold raises a number of important questions. If it is possible to offer such a high degree of protection why did the tragedies of Helen Duncan and Alec Harris occur? Was it because.
1. The spirit team could have prevent them but chose not to. That would have been callous and I find hard to accept.
2. They thought they could prevent them but prevailing conditions such as the amount of energy available at that time prevented it.
3. They were not positive that something untoward would happen and were taken by surprise.
4. Differing teams and their mediums have differing levels of expertise and the exact scenarios were just not foreseeable or preventable by those involved.
I think the answer is that all mediums are different and all spirit teams are different. Not better, just different. Some teams, like mediums, may be more advanced or have more expertise and/or energy available than others at certain times.
Rita had a team who were not prepared to take risks or maybe they had greater control at that particular time than some teams. Its obvious to me from what you say that for some reason or other Helen Duncan and Alec Harris were not given the protection afforded to Rita.
We are left with a conundrum. If we assume Helen’s and Alec’s team were as in control as those looking after Rita then it makes them appear to be callous and I find that hard to accept.
I too agree that the accusations regarding the swallowing of cheesecloth were absurd but there is no lack of ingenuity or creativity when it comes to some forms of scepticism. That’s why I try to be sceptical of scepticism, particularly when it so often derives from hearsay.
Peter
I suggest you read Louie’s account of the incident with Alec in ‘Alec Harris: the full account of his remarkable physical mediumship’. She was warned very specifically about the spirit team only being able to protect him “only three parts of the way” and that they were taking risked by allowing such people into the circle.
Rohan, the guide, was very reluctant to come out into the room that evening but eventually did because Louie and the others did not wish to disappoint the people.
WE HAVE FREE WILL to do as we wish and so take those risks – sometimes. If we choose to disregard their warnings they can do nothing. They are not permitted go against our free will. It is against the Natural Laws of our existence.
Ann
I understand that we all have free will, well in most things anyway. I think, if my memory is correct, it was Silver Birch who said that we do not have total freedom to destroy the world for instance.
It still does not solve the problem as to why Rita Goold was protected and Helen Duncan and Alec Harris were not. I think your reply does confirm that spirit teams are willing to take risks as long as their mediums are fully aware of them though, and that they do not always have total control due to natural law.
In Michael’s account it appears that for some reason the spirit team gave no prior warning but zapped the fool before he could do any harm. That would appear to be a way of solving the free will problem of choosing to ignore advice. What you don’t know about you cannot be responsible for. This would appear to be a way of justifying intervention and avoiding any conflict relating to the law of free will. Why, I wonder, could they have not done the same for Helen Duncan and Alec Harris?
Wes wrote:
It’s rather telling that the issue of money would provoke a response rather than any other issue raised here.
Wes or whoever you may be?
First of all I notice you are a member and regular contributor on the ‘SpirituslistLink’ website along with the website founders Liz & Jim Warwood and their friend George Cranley (aka Zerdini) also I see you have served “The Rosa Tingey centre” so I can deduce from that, you are friends with the above, so will obviously give your support to them.
I dont usually answer people who hide behind aliases like you or behind computor screens and dont have the courage to own their words, but in this case I will, because I can see your clear connection with Jim & Liz Warwwod and as I feel you are also being personal, you will get the same answer as Jim Warwood.
MY FINANCES ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
David Thompson
I am not concerned about your finances, what I am concerned about is having some light shed on Roy’s seven questions, which are:
1. Is it the goal of yourself or your spirit helpers to ultimately produce materialisations or other physical phenomena in a red light?
2. If so, when do you expect that to happen?
3. In the meantime, is it sensible to continue to demonstrate in total darkness, leaving some participants (as evidenced from responses to my Blog) unconvinced by the results?
4. Are your spirit helpers striving to provide more personal survival evidence in the future and less show business entertainment from the likes of Quentin Crisp and Louis Armstrong?
5. Can your main spirit helper, William, explain why the materialised Gordon Higginson was unaware that his good friend Heather Hatton had passed over to spirit a year earlier when he communicated in Australia?
6. Have your spirit helpers been asked about the introduction of night vision goggles or infra-red light to view and even film the materialised entities?
7. Instead of being tied up during a séance, would you agree to being tested by SPR researchers using simple weighing devices that would monitor not only your presence in a chair throughout the séance proceedings, but also the independent existence (by weight) of any spirits that materialised? Such a method would be totally unobtrusive as far as light is concerned, if total darkness continues to be a necessary condition of your mediumship.
Wes (or however you are)
How rude, YOU want light shed on Roy Stemmans questions?
Have you ever heard the saying “I want cant get” my mother use to say it to me when I was a child, and I will dignifie your demands with the same response.
Why should I answer someone HIDING behind an alias?
I will say to you as I do your cohorts, if you dont like what I do, simple dont come to a seance.
David Thompson (Not hiding behind an alias) 🙂
My name is Neale Wesley Martin, and I prefer to be called Wes. Now that I have politely addressed your concerns, would you kindly address mine, after which I would be more than happy to attend one of your seances:
1. Is it the goal of yourself or your spirit helpers to ultimately produce materialisations or other physical phenomena in a red light?
2. If so, when do you expect that to happen?
3. In the meantime, is it sensible to continue to demonstrate in total darkness, leaving some participants (as evidenced from responses to my Blog) unconvinced by the results?
4. Are your spirit helpers striving to provide more personal survival evidence in the future and less show business entertainment from the likes of Quentin Crisp and Louis Armstrong?
5. Can your main spirit helper, William, explain why the materialised Gordon Higginson was unaware that his good friend Heather Hatton had passed over to spirit a year earlier when he communicated in Australia?
6. Have your spirit helpers been asked about the introduction of night vision goggles or infra-red light to view and even film the materialised entities?
7. Instead of being tied up during a séance, would you agree to being tested by SPR researchers using simple weighing devices that would monitor not only your presence in a chair throughout the séance proceedings, but also the independent existence (by weight) of any spirits that materialised? Such a method would be totally unobtrusive as far as light is concerned, if total darkness continues to be a necessary condition of your mediumship.
It’s best here not to confuse thorough scrutiny with criticism or to take questions as being accusations. Spiritualism is founded on knowledge and reason, and surely that’s what people today are using to assess any important issue, be it spiritual or otherwise.
Physical mediumship has the potential to convince people of life after death, in a real, meaningful way. Imagine being in a red light seance and seeing a hand materialise out of nothing, then grasping that hand and feeling its living flesh and warmth between your fingers, then seeing that hand disappear. Such an experience would be a momentous, life altering event. But without light, and the visual evidence it provides, that very same event would provide no evidence, no proof and no point.
So surely there is a responsibility here: a responsibility to the spirit lending you their energy; to the clients putting their trust in you; and also a responsibility to your own integrity and honesty, to present your abilities in the very best possible light.
I have sat in red light,stood in front of cabinet and have had Spirit surround my top half with her arms coming around me and running her fingers up and down my back,I have seen the outline of spirit children push the outline of there bodies against curtain and the highlight for me was to be allowed by Collene to shake the hands of Jonathan,I stood in front of cabinet,I waited while the lady before me had shaken the hand,the hand returned under curtain,then it reappeared,Jonathan’s hand came up to me,I took his right hand with my right hand,and I did as I have always done,I placed my left hand on the back of his right hand,I said the words to him God Bless and thank you Jonathan,Then his left hand appeard and claspped the back of my right hand,again I said same words God Bless and thank you Jonathan,his words was in his touch, I felt the words from him, travel from his lips down to his finger tips,through my fingertips, up to my ears, So I was touching and being touched by 2 hands in full red light and there was 34 people in the room at Jenny’s Sanctuary July 16th,on returning to my seat it was Ron and Jean being asked to come forward ,but as I was so overcome and was talking with Ann Marie a lady from London that was on back row with me,because she to had shaken hand early on ,and we where both very excited,and when I looked around back towards the cabinet,I thought I saw Ron and Jean at opposite side of the curtains,left and right,so I think there was a hand of Jonathan being shaken by each of the two at same time,say there thank you’s and good night,Maybe if anyone of the other 34 that was present that night could spread some light at what happened at the end.I can only assume it was extra ordenary because Ron Gilkes wrote a transcript of the said seance and said it was evidenting and astonishing,and as he has attended over 400 seance and that every seance is different,with each set of sitters making the seance different,so I do not know if it will be repeated again,you would have to ask Ron Gilkes he has more experience,this was my very 1st seance,and I hope it not my last,but you have to search where they happen,You can check FEG circle from Germany,You can check the wonderful webpage of Montcabirol.com,There is over 100 hours of recordings to listen to on Montacirol, free of charge,you can give a donation and testimonial from very honest people who are interested in the truth of spirit,and for free with same idea you can give a donation,you can listen to hours and hours of recordings from Leslie Flint,the Spirit come through and give so much information of what happens when you die,where you go,all about Reincarnation,they will tell you how many times you have been on earth.Because these recordings are of people that have passed a good few years ago,a more up todate recordings of spirit talking who left the earth just few years ago can all be listened to (Free of Charge)at Moncabirol,There is Phil Starr a Drag artist from London and Brightonm,he tells everyone that poofs do not go to hell,there is Irene Simms a young lady who has been on the earth plane twice,(So that gives answers to the people who want to know about reincarnation)she has been on earth plane twice,1st she died in the plague,and the 2nd time she fell from trapeze with Bertrum Mills Circus,and there is John Campbell Sloan,who the great Arthur Findlay wrote his fine books on his information,you can hear them all talk to the sitters,they give a question and answer for 1st hour,then some wonderful Transfiguration from Tom Morris and Kevin Lawrenson making sure everything runs perfect,(Except when Irene calls him Simon Dee) you will have to listen to find the answer to that yourself ,then you will have some lively entertainment from Irene and Phill,so worth while listening to,I have listened to every recording,some time twice over because of the banter,what is so good about this is because a lot of people,living around now can relate to what Irene is saying,Talking about South-end-on-sea,Bertrum Mills Circus,so many people remeber them,so there might even be people out here reading this that even know these people,There has to be lots and lots of people that know Phil Starr,from London and Brighton,there is even his bus that is named after him running up and down Brighton seafront,it is Number 69.
I have had 1 to 1 with mediums,have had a reading from Tony Stockwell at one of his shows,I feel my wife around me all the time,but sitting in seance in pitch darkness and listening to voice of Spirit through Bill Meadows Seance,was just wonderful,to watch so much in red light and feel spirit and to touch and be touch by spirit is truly wonderful.You just know you are in a place of wonder,that spirit come through and show there love to us all.That is when you know that your loved one is just a breath away,and that they are that close to you and that you can touch and be touched,that is what it has really given me.My or any other’s loved one’s could be of any of the spirits involved,they are the lucky one’s that have found a circle,and they have taken the time to sit and give there time to spirit to show us what is there for us,to learn to communicate to us,Just listen sometimes how hard it is in the beginning for spirit to come through the very 1st time,trying to master voice box,and people who sit at seance that want to get rid of the very people that mastered the communication and bring through the spirit of people at seance,do you really know what you are saying,I do not think so,I do know now that there is a lot of people out here that have not truly learned and listened to what spirit have said and told us through Leslie Flint, But for some people that is not enough,even people I have told of what I went through,they look at me as if I talking from another planet,and by god these very people that know so much of how all this is done by so much trickery and magician and escapoligist .There is one thing I would like to say and ask the very people that are sceptic,How do you explain to a blind person sitting in the same room as you in full white light,that the person in front of you is so and so,they touch them and they talk with them,how do you think they know?Even with red light,still people do not believe.What I have seen,what I have touched,what I have heard,who I have spoken to,I know I was in the world of sharing the same time with spirit,you can listen to a recording of Marie-Jeanne from Holland talking with Yellow Feather in a seance with Warren Caylor sharing with the world a piece of history,Yellow Feather asked the lady to come forward in darkness with some spirit light,to hold his hands with her’s and they coupled hands,and she had to explain to the others there what she was experiencing ,to the people in the darknes she explained what was happening,now to every blind person in the world they would not of needed 1000 spot lights shining on them to know what she was seeing by the touch of her hands,is it only eyes that can see?please do not tell a mental medium to stop using his 3rd eye.
Yes Wes it is such a momentous experience to shake the hands of spirit.no matter the light.When Spirit and only Spirit are ready to do the things that they want to do with us, we will be ready,when spirit are ready.They have the medium as 1st priority,not the sceptics of this world,Please can someone give me a list of the greatest achievments to mankind that the scepitics of this world on any subject have ever done,Answers please on the back of a postage stamp posted to guiness book of records and ask them to steam of for the list!
Tom
Hi Tom, I’m happy you had such a wonderful experience at a red light seance. Such is my nature though, that if I was standing in front a curtain with two hands sticking out, I’d want to know what was behind that curtain!
That doesn’t make me a sceptic though, after all SIlver Birch did advise that it’s good to have an open mind, but not an empty one. So I want convincing and to be convinced, I need evidence.
Now I don’t mean evidence that spirit exists, I’ve had enough direct experience with spirit to accept that, what I’m after is evidence that people who claim to have a connection with spirit really do.
I’ve seen dozens of mediums and only two or three of them I would call competent, and even those could have off days, so you really do need to have your wits about you when judging the worth of any medium, on any given day.
So if I go to a seance, reputation doesn’t matter, past experience with the same medium doesn’t matter, what I heard from other people doesn’t matter, what matters is “what happens on the night”.
So, when it comes to physical mediumship, I want to go in with a clean slate, an open mind and I’d want my eyes to be able to provide just as much evidence as my hearing, touch and intuition. This isn’t being sceptical, it’s being sensible.
Agree 100% with you Wes,so how then do you explain to the others that you Saw,Touched,Listened,Spoke and Danced around the room with 10 Spirits,You will have another 1000 like you say ,not unless I was there,not unless I saw them,not unless spoke to them,Well with 7 billion people in the world and only few physical mediums in the world,there is going to be a lot of unhappy Wes’s inthe world.When you go to a seance you are a person with a open mind to report what you as a representative of mankind meeting with Spirit,and Spirit is metting you as a representative of Billions in Spirit,Like you say,it is all in that 1 occasion,if all conditions are right,The medium is in trance,he has no idea what is going on,How many of the Physical mediums of today,sit with another Physical medium and knows and see’s what happens to them when they are in trance,Every time they wake up,the 1st thing they ask is,was it ok,did anything happen.Then it’s up to Wes to decide what he saw,what he believes,what he felt, and if Spirit did enough for him,But you have to ask yourself,did you do enough for Spirit,It is spirit that is in control of all of this,all mediums are just the doorway for Spirit to enter,and Then Spirit comes across the Wes and Roy’s of this world and every other person with same attitude,only If I can see it,Only if I can be there,then I will know,then you have another 1000 Wes and Roys,asking who are them other Wes and Roy’s,what did they see,what did they hear,what did they feel,Until my Dad,My Mum,My wife,My husband,My Son ,My Daughter comes through to me,then and only then will I believe,there is going to be a very lot of dissapointed people that go to seance in the future.If 10,000 people in broad daylight saw Lady Di walk around Hyde park on a Sunday Afternoon materialized on camera,beamed out across the world,There would be millions across the world say that was a camera trick,unless I was standing there in front of her and she spoke to ME,and ME and ME,then I might believe,and then all them Me’s have to go home and tell all that they know what they just seen,explain that,how do you tell them millions that never saw what you saw?Is your slate clean enough there Wes,who is going to believe you,just because 10,000 where there,I have been in a room with 34 other people and saw a medium in trance,cabled tied to a chair,out of it,but you are telling me it is he that does all behind the curtain.The same stories for years and years gone bye of how the medium sits and works from cabinet,and still Spiritualists to this day,assume the medium himself is doing all this from behind the curtain,because Spirit,Spirit are in control as to what you see,what you hear,what you touch,what intuition you recieve,and when you recieve every thing that convince you,try and convince the 100s in this blog,see if they believe one word you say,they will say,I’d want my eyes to be able to provide just as much evidence as my hearing ,touch and intuition ,that is being sensible that it is only me and me only,no one else matters I have to be there.I think it is nice that Quentin Crisp and Mr Armstrong and every other Spirit give up there time in Spirit to come through to the mediums on earth and try and inform everyone that life does not end,they do not have to,they can just turn there backs,and go forward with there own development,just the same as every Medium and the many sitters that sit in circles with them for years and years week in and week out ,to let you know what is ahead for you,and look how the people in this forum are treating Spirit,Treating our Mediums,all because of the ME,ME,ME, culture,unless I see it ,I hear,I touch,it means nothing,no wonder it a sad old world we live in.I’ve had enough now,this last time I ever be in this forum,I think I have seen enough of what is called spiritualism,who say’s Spirit needs Spiritualists,Spirits only need people who want to communicate with Spirit,Loving Caring,people who only think of LOVE,TRUTH and HARMONY.I do not see a lot of that in this forum.
Tom
I’m sorry you feel the need to leave this discussion Tom, as you make some very forceful points, especially your last sentence:
“Spirits only need people who want to communicate with Spirit,Loving Caring,people who only think of LOVE,TRUTH and HARMONY.I do not see a lot of that in this forum”
I’d be interested to see how much love, truth and harmony you believe David Thompson has expressed in his posts on this forum. After all, it’s his name at the top of the page, not mine 🙂
“Spirits only need people who want to communicate with Spirit,Loving Caring,people who only think of LOVE,TRUTH and HARMONY.I do not see a lot of that in this forum”
The above seems to be a blanket statement for all of those in spirit.
Let us be very careful what we say, because we seem to be forgetting the principal law of “Like will attract Like” and many may have read of what can happen when that is experienced.
I have written posts before and never experienced a sitting with David Thompson, I have with Stewart Alexander but I must add, and this is just a personal opinion, flying trumpets, voices in the dark, spirit touching etc are not for me, yes seen it and experienced it, but I would only go and sit if I could see spirit and communication was on philosophy or Q and A, that way I would be learning, that is more important than the other phenomena.
From what I have read, that seems to be the main desire of the posts on this site, not the other way as mentioned in another post.
If I may mention one thing, a list of requests was offered to David to reply to, one of those asked “When will his spirit team provide working in red light”
Questions like that I would never ask spirit as they cannot put a time on something that they are trying to develop, there are many factors involved.
I am a transfiguration medium, I work in red light, always have done, but that is a little different that dealing with denser forms of ectoplasm, but spirit, are slowly developing, to the point, where we think that full form is visible over me, faces and clouds of energy are visible, but I would never ask what are they trying to achieve, this I know may impinge in the mind of the medium certain fixations that will only hinder spirits work.
The saying will always be true, “Please just be available with an open mind and have trust in all that we do”
“Spirits only need people who want to communicate with Spirit,Loving Caring,people who only think of LOVE,TRUTH and HARMONY.I do not see a lot of that in this forum.”
Tom,
Mate, I could not agree with you more.. I am also fortunate enough to have experienced the presence of Spirit, to the point of never questioning it’s existence again.
Tom, it’s a sad thing, but the sceptics in this forum (the majority of those participating) are more to be pitied than scolded.
Like you Tom, I think it best that I will no longer waste my time here as it is obvious that ego is the main player in the majority of the comments posted.
Let us just be grateful that the both of us have a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT belief in the existence of life beyond life.
In the end, it’s a personal journey that each one of us has chosen to make. Luckily you and I have both followed the path of belief.
Trust me Tom, the rest will eventually find their own way. It will just take them a little while longer…. the key is to let their ego get out of the way.
Billy Stewart.
Canberra, Australia.
I’m pretty sure that the existence of life after life is not what is being debated here, but rather the refusal of one David Thompson to present his apparant abilities in a more visible way than he presently does.
It is a very valid point that you’ve made about ego versus spirit, as an examination of David Thompson’s posts on this forum will reveal more of the former and less of the latter.
Very interesting!
I know Victor Zammit, who validates phenomena with his well-oiled legal expertise, thinks David Thompson is the best thing since sliced bread, and I don’t question DT’s honesty, but I wouldn’t bother to go to a physical séance held completely in pitch blackness. After all, nobody I met at other physical séances in Jenny’s Sanctuary and elsewhere went there looking for proof, they were all long-term afterlife-aware people. We were there for the same reason other people go to the pub, the cinema or the theatre, to be amused by what the clever impresarios over there could put over. What’s amusing about sitting for hours in the dark?The spirit teams behind Bill Meadows and “Kevin and Tom” know this and ensure that frequent checks on the restraints of the medium in good light are made, that the very modest amount of materialisation is visible and with Bill at least, because I’ve been to four of his events, they ensure that they think up periodically new stunts in good red light like passing a trumpet through a solid object or hanging one in mid-air for a member of the audience to take. Bill’s lot also include a good drummer and musicians who play various instruments including a penny whistle I donated. This happens in the dark but every two or three minutes we are shown the medium in red light slumped and tied in his chair and a sitter has to physically check the ties.The modest materialisations I saw from Kevin were quite clear superimposed faces on the medium’s face and Bill Meadows does a fore-arm and people can go and shake the hand. They may be modest but they are clearly visible and taken with all the other activities ensure both an entertaining time for the sitters and development for the medium
Bill Meadow’s team have developed a non-ectoplasm technique. Perhaps that’s why frequent exposure to red light doesn’t cause any problems.
I’d rather pay the £30 for a session with mediums like these than £45 to sit in the dark and be patted on the head in a David Thompson one.
I once went to a Helen Duncan séance but it was after her incarceration and there was plenty of ectoplasm but the intended faces were not very clear, no doubt due to her physical condition. I am 93.
George Barker, Ringwood, Hampshire
Hello George,
An excellent posting and perfect appraisal of what happens at Bill Meadow’s demonstrations. Clearly I do not know what your marital status is nor whether your partner is still on the earthplane but if she were in Spirit and you were given the choice of being greeted by a disembodied hand in lighted conditions during one seance or being greeted, caressed and spoken to by an identifiable loved one in a dark seance…honestly which would you choose??
Sincerely
Denzil
HiTom and Billy
I am a believer in the spirit world. However I am not foolish enough to believe in everything everyone says at any time as long as they inlcude words like harmony. The middle word you used was truth without this truth there is no harmony. I have known many mediums that do not think of themselves as spiritualy advanced human beings and nor should they. They just have a gift. I have never used the language that Victor has used or the venomous tones
I do however feel reassured that you pity me and will not scold me and this shows your non jusgemental view to its full extent.
I believe that spirit can use mediums who are less than perfect and I do believe that non perfect people are able to receive communication as well.
So please do not role out the Love Truth and Harmony mantra as if you own it and the rest of us are the great unwashed.
Re engage in the debate as to how the bereaved can be helped and not fooled into how they receive communication and from they receive it.
warm regards
Hello,
I’m a little disappointed at only getting 8 thumbs down to my question in response to George Barker’s recent posting…but even more disappointed that not one of the 8 taking the time to post a thumbs down bothered to respond with their reason why!…will just have to assume they really would actually prefer to be greeted by a disembodied hand in lighted conditions rather than greeted, caressed and spoken to by one of their identifiable loved one in a dark seance!!
Jim…on 21st September you said you were going to look into the possibility of whether the report produced for “our”[your] records, by the sceptical scientist, could be reproduced here. Would love to hear sometime whether the “copyright” issue has been waived by the scientist to allow his report to be publicised…it would be most unusual for a scientist not to want his work aired don’t you think?
Mike Goodall…on 7th September, following some discussion on the Enfield polterguist case, when you claimed the full address was public knowledge, I subsequently made further investigations and could find no mention of the house number on record anywhere…in my posting I asked whether it would be possible for you to do the honours at finding the number…just wondering whether you have had any luck yet my friend?…would have to presume you either didn’t take up the challenge or like me you just couldn’t find the info.
This is an important issue and one which should not be pushed to the back of the cupboard…it could turn out to be a significant piece of seance evidence.
Look forward to hearing from you…one and all!
Sincerely,
Denzil
The reason for all the thumbs down might have been due to it being such a loaded question, written in a way to get the answer you wanted.
See if you can guess the answer I want from this question:
Would you rather your dearly departed grandmother appeared before you in a seance held in broad daylight where she sang all the nursery rhymes she used to sing to you when you were a boy, in the same sweet lilting voice, and wore the same pink apron she used to wear when she baked scones for you, and when she kissed you on the cheek you smelt the same lavender scent she wore all those years ago.
…or would you rather your grandmother appeared before you in a dark seance where she had an oddly masculine voice, refused to answer any questions about the nursery rhymes she used to sing to you, or name the colour of the apron she she used to wear, and when she kissed you, you felt stubble on her chin and smelt Old Spice?
A far more balanced question to ask would have been: Would you rather go to a physical mediumship demonstration held in darkness, or one held in red light?
Hi Wes,
I can see where you are coming from…but I would have to disagree that my question was loaded as the option on offer in my question are the options on offer at this moment in time with PM.
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
I note your remark: “Jim…on 21st September you said you were going to look into the possibility of whether the report produced for “our”[your] records, by the sceptical scientist, could be reproduced here. Would love to hear sometime whether the “copyright” issue has been waived by the scientist to allow his report to be publicised…it would be most unusual for a scientist not to want his work aired don’t you think?”
In response, I will merely point out that the scientist has not given permission for their full report to be reproduced here, nor for their name to be revealed. That is their right. However, although discussion of their report would not seem directly relevant to the subject actually under discussion on this forum since you seem so interested I am able to provide you with a few extracts from the report, which might convey what occurred in the session the scientist attended.
Their were 20 participants attending the demonstration by a well respected American medium, who had been involved in the research carried out by Professor Gary Schwartz and their involvement is recorded in ‘The Afterlife Experiments.’
At the time the scientist described themself as “an open minded objective observer with an emerging interest in the afterlife and methods of earthly communication therewith.” The scientist’s professional background is that of an “internationally renowned scientist and electrical / electronic engineer.” In their report they recorded that during the séance and demonstrations they “witnessed some astounding events that completely defied rational explanation by means of the traditional science and physics that I’m familiar and conversant with; hence arguably might well be attributable to paranormal spirit phenomenon.”
The report describes what that scientist saw as the highlights of a “most extraordinary evening.” It focused on two different physical phenomena: Transfiguration and a ‘Table-Tipping/Table Turning demonstration. Here is a little of what was recorded regarding the transfiguration phenomena:
“To demonstrate the physical phenomenon of ‘Transfiguration’ (the medium) went into a trance state in an otherwise darkened room illuminated by a monochromatic red light source.” The light was sitting on a table a few feet in front of the medium who was “sitting against a black cloth backdrop at the 12 o’clock position of the circle of participants / observers.” The scientist “was sitting at the 4 o’clock position about 3 meters distance away.” During the trance the medium “spoke in several voices and abstruse sentence structures and intonations that were clearly not her own as apparently various spirits seemingly took command of her vocal apparatus. Subsequently her face features transformed into numerous dramatically different male and female forms ranging from a very old deeply wrinkled woman, to a young girl called “Sally”, to a square-jawed man with Errol Flynn style moustache and thick bushy eyebrows.”
At one stage when a particular transfiguration, that of an elderly woman, was appearing an “audible ‘yes’ (in response as to whether the elderly woman was the deceased mother of a person in the room) was heard to have emanated not from (the medium’s) mouth, but seemingly from a spatial position approximately two feet above and to the right of their shoulder. At yet another stage of transformation an extra set of ectoplasmic blinking eyes seemed to be superimposed on (the medium’s) forehead.”
During the demonstration the medium “would have progressed/sequenced through about 8 or so radically different facial transformations.” The scientist reported that he “was just sitting there absolutely stunned doing double takes because I couldn’t believe my eyes! I found no discernable evidence whatsoever of sophistry or any contrived deception to bring about such visual images by artificial or any other explicable means.”
The scientist also reported on the table-tipping/table-turning phenomena they witnessed. After noting that those present split up into three groups to sit around three separate round tables he recorded:
“They were heavy / solidly built 1 metre diameter dining room period style tables with a heavy central column supported by 3 radial legs for ensuring a stable disposition on the floor. Everyone placed both their hands lightly fingers down around the table top, about 6 inches inwards from the circumference edge, each person completing the circle by touching our two thumbs together and then touching each other’s outer little fingers together to form a continuous unbroken loop. After a period of anxious contemplation … two of the tables initially started with subtle movement followed by violent tipping, then periodically moving and rocking like wild bucking horses.”
“The table movement was both vertical (levitation!!) and horizontally disposed. It was also a very substantial and powerful motion. In one case the horizontal movement of the table was several metres migrating in both purposeful and random directions of travel across the room, the circle of participants having to hurriedly clear away chairs and handbags in the pathway.
“Incredulously stunned by witnessing this happen, I broke the circle at one stage to deliberately try and introduce a restoring force to counteract the vertical and lateral motions; but was simply unable to do so applying all of my available strength!! Whatever mechanism was providing the motive force to the table could not be neutralized … At the peak of motion an ephemeral white mass of supposed ectoplasm appeared at the feet of my table, shortly after which the timber joint that locked the lower leg into the table’s robust central turned wood column had fractured causing one of the 3 legs to completely fall off and the table to collapse to the floor! One can imagine / estimate the mechanical force that would be required to cause such structural failure.”
The report concludes with the statement: “On my subsequent scrupulous detailed inspection and assessment of the tables I could find no evidence whatsoever of mechanical or electrical contrivances that might be capable of bringing about the motion effects that I witnessed. Nor were there any emanating noises and acoustic sound evident during the table’s sustained periods of levitation and horizontal motion.”
Since I was present throughout the events described in the report I can confirm the report accurately describes what occurred and I believe it represents an interesting record of good physical phenomena and physical mediumship in red light.
Lis
Hi again Denzil,
I should perhaps also point out that this event took place in the afternoon and early evening of a summer’s day. There were no black-out curtains covering the vertical drapes on the windows in the room, thus allowing a degree of gentle natural light to also illuminate the room throughout the proceedings described.
The tables used were all borrowed from people and were only placed in the room a few minutes before the event began. No other special apparatus was brought into the room, nor special precautions taken to ensure the medium’s ‘safety’, as they did not believe they were at any risk and they suffered no adverse effects from working in this environment. Those present had not been asked to provide any form of identification, and a number were unknown, other than by their first names, by those who organised the event. The identity of all (other than the organizers) were unknown to the medium.
The black cloth (ironically originally purchased in preparation for use at a proposed David Thompson seance) in front of which the medium sat was quite casually draped over a white board and did not form in any sense a ‘cabinet.’ Everyone in the room was free to move about during both parts of the event and were able to examine anything in the room.
While I agree that what occurred was not at the same level as a ‘materialization’ seance, I do think it highlights that it is possible to demonstrate quite a lot of physical phenomena in lighted conditions. You will no doubt have noticed that there was ectoplasm visibly produced on that occasion, and seen around the table at the time. That this was possible in such a situation is, I think, most interesting.
Hi Lis…thanks for your posting…it all “seems” pretty amazing…perhaps you could elucidate though as to why the scientist bothered to write a report that he never intended anyone else to read?…it makes one feel there may be something to hide. May I point out, however, a small area of conflict in the scientists report and your further comment regarding the light…the scientist reported “the medium went into a trance state in an otherwise darkened room illuminated by a monochromatic red light source….Whereas you quite emphatically stated that “I should perhaps also point out that this event took place in the afternoon and early evening of a summer’s day. There were no black-out curtains covering the vertical drapes on the windows in the room, thus allowing a degree of gentle natural light to also illuminate the room throughout the proceedings described”.
These descriptions are totally different to one another…so that if we are to take your description Lis as the legitimate option then that would make the scientist’s description and hence the whole of his report a somewhat dubious document to accept, wouldn’t you agree?
I’m not a great fan of table tipping as there are too many variables involved…plus one is never quite sure whether it is spirit, telekenisis or plain old fashioned fraud. I appreciate there was mention of an “ephemeral white mass of supposed ectoplasm appearing at the foot of the table”…but the report doesn’t say whether it was witnessed by anyone else present or just the scientist?
It is quite easy to formulate, from these discrepancies, just how easilly information from any source can be distorted so that nobody really quite knows what the truth is.
By the way Lis I must add that I would have loved to have seen the Transfiguration demo…sound amazing 🙂
Sincerely
Denzil
Denzil, there is no contradiction or conflict between the scientist’s report and my comment. The room was darkened by closing of the drapes, and only a red light was then used. I merely pointed out that no black out coverage of the windows was carried out which meant that a low level of diffuse natural light still existed. That is inevitable in a room where the windows are covered only by vertical drapes and not curtains. The scientist was quite correct in saying therefore the room was darkened and illuminated by a monochromatic light source.
There is also no contradiction in there being a report which was not intended for publication. You ask “why the scientist bothered to write a report that he never intended anyone else to read?” My response is, they didn’t write a response they never intended anyone else to read. They wrote a report for the organization that had sponsored the event to read. They did not write a report for the purpose of publication on the internet, as is their right given their professional status and circumstances at the time.
If at any time the eminent scientist who wrote the report decides that it should be published I am sure they will do so and clearly attach their name to that published report. In the meantime, I have no authority to release in entirety the report or its author’s name. To do so would be both disrespectful and an abuse of trust.
As for table-tipping, I was not, based on previous experiences, the greatest fan of this either, but then again, when one sees such an incredible performance as what occurred on that occasion, one cannot but be impressed by the power or force that was at work. I also agree with you that there are a number of possible explanations for what causes the table-tipping, and it might indeed be the result of telekinesis rather than spirit. On that occasion, there was some clear evidence (also described in another part of the report) that there was at least some spirit involvement in what occurred during the table-tipping experiment.
As for the supposed ectoplasm, I can definitely state that the scientist was not alone in observing this. I can state also I was a person at the table which levitated, on several occasions at least 18 inches+ off the ground, and for significant periods of time, while also moving forward or backwards over several feet. Indeed, at one point, the table was so high off the ground people trying to keep up with the tables movements where standing on their toes reaching up with arms outstretched trying to even keep their hands on the table, and a number could not, yet the table’s activity continued unabated.
I can state with complete certainty that the table was at one point literally running across the room with the people trying to keep up with it and scrambling to try and get chairs and belongings out of the way as it careered around the room. The table broke as it returned from a state of levitation and the expert craftsman restorer which we had to use to repair the table since it was borrowed from someone made it quite clear that the way the table leg and pedestal had fractured was inexplicable in their opinion. I assure you that there was no fraud whatsoever involved in what took place.
Thanks for your posting Lis…could I just ask though whether there was any communication through the table?… if so was it evidential?…if not what was your purpose/reason for doing it? As I said previously I am not a fan of table tilting/tipping because one is never quite sure what or who is behind the operation of it. If there was no communication then was this experiment just carried out for a bit of fun/entertainment? Please be assured Lis that my intention is not to have a go…I am truly interested in the reasoning behind the thoughts for carrying out this kind of experiment!
Sincerely
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
As previously stated there were three tables. Two tables (as mentioned in the report) moved. One table did not move at all no matter who placed their hands on the table. One table moved extensively as described and broke. The other table, after a less dramatic degree of movement then became responsive to questions being asked and appeared to involve spirit communication. Those people on that table stated correct responses and communication between themselves and specific spirits occurred. Since I was not involved with that table I cannot state that their perception of spirit involvement was correct, though I have no reason to doubt them, and they certainly believed that evidential interaction occurred with the spirit world.
The “experiment” with table-tipping was not carried out for entertainment. It was preceded by a serious presentation by the medium on the history of table-tipping in the early days of Spiritualism in America. Their talk included a very clear exposition of the principles of spirit communication, physical phenomena that may or may not have spirit involvement, the problems associated with physical phenomena in dark seances, the high incidence of fraudulent mediums in such dark seances, and why the main American Spiritualist association had banned them.
It was for this reason that at all times, though the room was darkened, it was not blacked out to create total darkness. Indeed, during the table-tipping segment of the event the illumination in the room was increased by turning on the six lights inset into the ceiling of the room, these being controlled by a dimmer switch, set low, but ensuring sufficient light that people could see what was happening.
The medium’s talk also covered in some depth the fact that much apparently spirit induced phenomena seen in the early days of Spiritualism was undoubtedly demonstrating a psychic force that should not, unless other demonstrable evidence of spirit was present, be assumed as spirit driven. Hence, the experiment with the tables when it went ahead was to provide the participants an opportunity to both experience that physical phenomena, and to assess whether they then thought there was, or could have been, spirit involvement, or some other psychic force occurring.
It was an informative and highly educational demonstration. In fact, at the time, many participants were of the view that the experiment had amply demonstrated both apparent physical phenomena where there was no overt evidence of spirit involvement, and phenomena where spirit was involved.
Thanks for your reply Lis…
Regards
Denzil
It’s wonderful that David Thompson has agreed to be interviewed elsewhere in Spirit of PN, and even better that he is happy to answer people’s questions put directly to him.
Sue, I wonder if I could ask if David indicated in his interview the best way to contact him with any questions one might have: such as an email address or phone number?
Just in case David is reading this I would be most grateful to learn where the answers to Roy Stemman’s seven questions are, seeing as you have already “answered such questions elsewhere on various websites”.
David Thompson has emailed SPN to say that he can be contacted via the Circle of the Silver Cord website: http://circleofthesilvercord.net/ Sue
It’s good to see David Thompson speak out at last. However his condition that there should be no comments is disappointing and causes one to wonder what he is a afraid of. I have never understood what is to be feared from honest debate. Looking back on Roy Stemman’s 7 questions it’s clear that the item concerning Gordon Higginson’s unawareness that his good friend Eric Hatton’s wife had passed to the spirit realms has not been tackled in any way. I wonder why this is?
Well done for getting the man to go on the record. Not that it tells us very much! He had an opportunity and wasted it. Sad for PM.
I too am saddened that Mr Thompson wishes to censor comments on his interview. It does him no credit whatsoever. If you promote yourself as a public medium, then you have no moral right to try and quash the public from discussing your interview!
A couple of points in relation to Mr Thompson’s interview:
Firstly, on giving his reasons for refusing to undergo any form of testing (including the use of infra red and thermal cameras), Mr Thompson opines:
“Physical mediumship is so sensitive that even if one person in the séance room is sceptical or has a strong expectation, the quality of communication can be seriously impaired.
However, he completely undermines this ‘reason’ by earlier stating:
“Some question the darkened conditions of the séances. I use restraints, gags….”
So, he admits that he uses restraints in his seances because some sitters are sceptical of the darkened conditions, yet it is alleged that “world shattering” evidence is still obtained, nontheless. Yet when it comes to the question of testing by truly independent researchers, Mr Thompson uses the ‘sceptism’ card as a reason for refusing because “the quality of communication can be seriously impaired.”
Why would an independent researcher’s sceptism undermine the quality of communication, while an ordinary sitter’s sceptism does not?!
Continuing on this topic, Mr Thompson states:
“Now consider the introduction of infrared and thermal cameras, probes, etc and the expectation of the operators. Think for a moment the type of vibration this will create.”
Firstly, why does Mr Thompson seem to think we know anything about the type of vibrations cameras would create and the subsequent “expectations” of the operators in a seance room?
Secondly, why are the vibrations of a camera and its operator’s expectations any more harmful to communication than a tape recorder (which Thompson uses quite happily) and it’s operator’s expectations?
An infra red camera emits LESS radiation than the sitters in the room do!
Further, Leslie Flint submitted himself to numerous tests by researchers and produced excellent phenomena regardless of any sceptism.
And lastly, Mr Thompson states that he hopes to produce phenomena in spirit inspired light. He states:
“William has explained that the technique being experimented with is similar to the process that causes the Aurora Borealis (Northern Lights).”
Since auroras are caused from emissions of photons and can only occur in the Earth’s upper atmosphere (50 miles) I am at a total loss to understand how this process could be termed “similar” if it is occuring in a seance room on the ground!
Sadly, Mr Thompson’s answers in his interview only beg more questions….
Hi Simon,
Towards the end of your posting you questioned the analogy used in David’s interview of the term Aurora Borealis as a description for the Spirit induced light being experimented upon within his development circle. In our group development circle we also witness what appears to be a similar light effect…that is to say it is luminous patches of moving energy which resemble the Aurora effect. Also witnessed in our development circle are sparkly lights (like a starry night sky), clouds of light (like patches of cotton candy) and various individual lights (static, blinking and speed trails). Unable to explain what any of these mean at this stage…but like many others trying to develope PM at this time we place our Faith in those who’ve gone before us and trust that they know what they’re doing. It would be intersting to hear whether any other groups are experiencing similar light anomolies/effects?
Regards
Denzil
Hi Denzil,
I do not dispute the seance room effects you describe. However, Thompson’s alleged guide has made a specific statement as to HOW the effect will be produced in his seance room.
Thompson states:
““William has explained that the technique being experimented with is similar to the process that causes the Aurora Borealis (Northern Lights).”
The process that causes the Aurora Borealis is TOTALLY DEPENDENT upon it occuring in conditions that are ONLY present in the Earth’s UPPER atmosphere. That is why you will never see it happening down the park or at the end of your street! 🙂
Logically therefore, the alleged guide’s claim must be false.
Regards,
Simon